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Old 09-23-2010, 07:44 PM
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Default Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

Hi everyone,

I'm a new PDF froglet owner in Hawaii. I am using a 5gl tank (as suggested from a local pet store) for my froglet(s) until they grow larger and require more space. Although I have read on many threads froglets will eat on their own if they're hungry, I can't help but worry that mine is not.

Short history: I have two PDFs that have been living in my backyard now for years, and only in the past year have we experienced seeing tadpoles from them. I have yet to see the egg stage, but I have seen the male PDF deliver baby tadpoles into my small fish containers.

I have watched several froglets develop this past year, and have kept one previously. That one unfortunately got sick one month in and well..

My previous froglet didn't take to pinhead crickets too well, because the size of them in the local store were larger than what could fit in its mouth.

This time around I've purchased wingless FF -- the type everyone talks about online -- and I've only seen my current froglet eat two so far (on separate occasions). I'm worried he may not be eating enough, or if I am overfeeding him, and potentially stressing him out. (I have maybe 20+ flies in an open area eating a piece of fruit making it central and easy for my froglets to find -- example picture below)

It's about 12 days old now (today), and I just introduced a second froglet in the tank yesterday. I was hoping the first could lead by example for hunting, but neither froglet seem interested in the flies.

Are they eating enough? Is there some way I can tell? It's hard to determine if they've become skinnier (watching them everyday) so I have here a few pictures for someone else's fresh eyes to take a look.

Also, I am waiting on an order of 'white worms' I've heard mention on some thread previously. Hopefully those will (at the very least) help me measure how many are eaten (if at all).

Any advice will really help me out and possibly put me at ease. Thanks!

Photographs:




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Old 09-23-2010, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

Awesome....

Please get some pics in situ of some "native" Auratus !!! They will be a guarenteed hit on this board.

Some basic "help desk" questions first. Sorry if they seem basic but it's usually how I start.

1. Temps ? shoot for 78-75F day....small drop at night

2. Humidity ? Do you have a glass lid? Totally enclosed tank? Humidy should be high - @ 80 percent;. Substrate should be damp but not soaking. Mist every other day or so with non chlorinated water.

3. What size tank? Looks kinda small....

I would put a lot more plantings in there. Broad leafed plants like pothos. Some medium sized leaf litter.

Chances are the frog is eating but you just don't see it. Body size on the adults looks ok.

More info after you reply to above....

Very cool HI frogs !
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Last edited by Philsuma; 09-23-2010 at 08:11 PM. Reason: other stuff
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

They look pretty healthy to me. It's, of course, much easier to tell in person, but Hawaii is a far cry from Texas...

You should do a test. Fruit flies live for several days, so you can put 20 in, or a little more, and see how many you see crawling around the next day.

The next day observation is pretty self-explanatory: If you see pretty much the number you've put in, your frogs are not eating. If you see very few, or none at all, they are eating.

I'm sure everyone differs with feeding, but if I'm ever unsure on the number of flies getting munched up, when I come around the next day, I blow with not much force with my lips pursed into the tank, which makes the fruit flies start moving around. That makes them not only super easy to get a count on, but much easier to see for your babies.

If they are obviously eating, and a decent portion of the flies you tapped in the day before are gone, but you still have quite a few FFs running around in there, I'd cut back a little.

If the next day there are zero FFs left, perhaps maybe feed a tiny bit more until, after blowing, you at least see one or two walking about.

Having a piece of fruit in there is good. I find what's more important than keeping the frogs knowing where the fruit flies are is keeping the fruit flies off the frogs. They can get stressed to death by having those little buggers crawling all over them.

There are tons of people here who have been successfully keeping happy, healthy frogs for many more years than myself, and most are always willing to help. I think feeding is one of those things with quite a bit of variation when it comes to people's preferences who are in the hobby.

That's my tuppence worth. Hope it was some help.
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

Just want to add that I think there is a typo here

Quote:
1. Temps ? shoot for 78-75F day....small drop at night
and that he meant to say 68-75F daytime temps. Phil doesn't usually advocate temps that close to 80.
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

Quote:
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Just want to add that I think there is a typo here



and that he meant to say 68-75F daytime temps. Phil doesn't usually advocate temps that close to 80.

indeed...thank you!



ok...sorry....just re-read and see that you have a 5 gallon viv.

Too small. Maybe stressing the frog out from such a small enclosure and FF climbing around everywhere.

Try to get a 10 gallon at least. And then plant it heavily.
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

Thank you for your help everyone. For those of you with questions/advice, I responded below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
Awesome....

Please get some pics in situ of some "native" Auratus !!! They will be a guarenteed hit on this board.

I actually have collected a few hundred photos of the wild and domesticated PDFs around my house. I'll be sure to upload those at a later time for you all to see. ^^

Some basic "help desk" questions first. Sorry if they seem basic but it's usually how I start.

1. Temps ? shoot for 78-75F day....small drop at night

The tank sits outside in the shade outside my house. The temperature varies from 70~85 depending on the weather conditions here. Seeing as these frogs are able to thrive on their own (and have for years in my backyard) may suggest the temperature is nothing to worry about.

2. Humidity ? Do you have a glass lid? Totally enclosed tank? Humidy should be high - @ 80 percent;. Substrate should be damp but not soaking. Mist every other day or so with non chlorinated water.

I do not use a glass lid, rather a mesh screen I purchased from the pet store along with my 5GL tank. I do mist every other day with de-chlorinated water, and make sure nothing is ever dry in the tank. Again, living in Hawaii, it's rather humid everyday anyhow; furthermore, I live in a valley which consistently rains a few times a week.

3. What size tank? Looks kinda small....

I would put a lot more plantings in there. Broad leafed plants like pothos. Some medium sized leaf litter.

I initially had leaves gathered around the house and ferns inside to give the PDF more hiding spots. As a family pet, I would much rather be able to monitor things like how many FF are still inside more easily with fewer plants. Currently I am using silk plants I bought at Walmart, and outfitted them with garden wires to bend them around a centerpiece rock (where I place the fruit & FF).

If more plants are vital/heavily suggested, I will look into buying some more for coverage.


Chances are the frog is eating but you just don't see it. Body size on the adults looks ok.

I really hope so. I would hate for him to go hungry. The adult is actually wild, and occasionally I see the adults out and about eating after a nice downpour.

More info after you reply to above....

Very cool HI frogs !

Thank you! and thank you very much for your help!
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodysHero View Post
They look pretty healthy to me. It's, of course, much easier to tell in person, but Hawaii is a far cry from Texas...

I'm not sure about the anatomy of the frog, but every once in a while looking down on it (bird's eye view) the base of the frog looks very narrow. But viewing these images (I've been taking almost every day now) I can see the bottom side of it looks rather robust and healthy.

You should do a test. Fruit flies live for several days, so you can put 20 in, or a little more, and see how many you see crawling around the next day.

Earlier in the week I did just that, with about 20 FF. Everyday I did notice a (small) decrease in FF, but that may also be due to a wide mesh-top I use. (I haven't added a thinner mesh lining yet -- but I intend to this weekend.)

The next day observation is pretty self-explanatory: If you see pretty much the number you've put in, your frogs are not eating. If you see very few, or none at all, they are eating.

I'm sure everyone differs with feeding, but if I'm ever unsure on the number of flies getting munched up, when I come around the next day, I blow with not much force with my lips pursed into the tank, which makes the fruit flies start moving around. That makes them not only super easy to get a count on, but much easier to see for your babies.

A concern I've had so far is whether or not the PDF could be intimidated by the number of flies or not. I have seen it go after a stray or two (rarely) but never within an inch or two of the fruit (with 20 FF). I have tried blowing on the flies in its direction, but it rarely takes notice to the flies right in front of it. I wonder what may be going on.

If they are obviously eating, and a decent portion of the flies you tapped in the day before are gone, but you still have quite a few FFs running around in there, I'd cut back a little.

If the next day there are zero FFs left, perhaps maybe feed a tiny bit more until, after blowing, you at least see one or two walking about.

Having a piece of fruit in there is good. I find what's more important than keeping the frogs knowing where the fruit flies are is keeping the fruit flies off the frogs. They can get stressed to death by having those little buggers crawling all over them.

I noticed that with the "pinhead" crickets from my previous froglet. It seemed more scared than anything of the crickets and would hop away every time a cricket would touch it.

There are tons of people here who have been successfully keeping happy, healthy frogs for many more years than myself, and most are always willing to help. I think feeding is one of those things with quite a bit of variation when it comes to people's preferences who are in the hobby.

That's my tuppence worth. Hope it was some help.

It does, and thank you for your help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
ok...sorry....just re-read and see that you have a 5 gallon viv.

Too small. Maybe stressing the frog out from such a small enclosure and FF climbing around everywhere.

Try to get a 10 gallon at least. And then plant it heavily.

Unfortunately I can't say the pet store owners are experts in PDFs, but the two I spoke to agreed a 5GL enclosure was the right amount of space for thumbnail froglets. They said the size was appropriate (and that I should get a bigger one as they grow) and it will allow the froglets to find food more easily.

I saw this as beneficial (as well as not having many plants) to be able to view them when I want to, it gives the tank a clean look, and it's very easy to clean when maintenance is needed. I was not aware (nor was I told by the two store owners) that I needed a lot for the terrarium. They suggested something simple with a moss bottom and some leaves for them to hide under.
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Old 09-24-2010, 12:35 AM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

Wow! It is so exciting to see someone posting about Hawaiian aurtatus and in Hawaii no less.

As others have said, the froglets look good to me as well. I have raised up a number of auratus and my favs- the Hawaiians as well. They don't ever really eat much for a week or so, and then it is not a whole lot for another couple of weeks. Sounds like you are doing the perfect thing by having the fruit "feeding station", so you can monitior their intake better. I like to see flies on the fruit at all times it there is only 3 or 4 I will feed more. A five gallon tank should fine for the new froglets Although I have found that the more hiding places the auratus have ...especially leaf litter ...it seems to make them more secure and act bolder. If you put some leaf litter near your feeding station it may help with their feeding more frequently as well.

Oh and are you dusting with calcium, vitamins ? If not you need to and the dust also will slow the ff down making it easier for the froglets to grab them.

Sally
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Old 09-24-2010, 12:42 AM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

@Philsuma

I've been reading various forum threads for the last hour and I see majority of the helpers suggest or use "pothos" as you mentioned. I did speak to someone at Home Depot before I built my terrarium and he suggested not buying their plants because of the fertilizer that goes in the soil. That's why I chose the artificial, silk alternative.

I still have a dozen more strands of fake leaves (as seen in the image above) and there are different types of fake leaves at Walmart I can pick up. Would those do the job, or are real leaves better somehow and/or are necessary?

If real plants are necessary, where would be a good place to buy them? Also, how should I plant them? Right now (from top to bottom) I have green moss (from around the house) covering a sphagnum moss/soil mixture, over a bed of aquarium rocks. Should they be planted beneath the green moss?

And my last question is -- what is leaf litter? I read it a lot in various topics/threads, but I'm not certain what it is. A quick google search shows me wet, dead leaves. That's not exactly the "look" I'm going for in the terrarium (which I want to be shades of green) but does it serve some sort of purpose? If it's for moisture -- that's not a problem as I frequently mist the leaves and wet the moss. And if it serves as more hiding places, wouldn't more fake/real plant leaves do the trick?

Thanks for the help!
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Old 09-24-2010, 01:43 AM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

@srrrio

Thank you for your input Sally!

I wasn't aware these species were known as "Hawaiian", haha. I thought they were just the green variety, and the only "safe harboring" species permitted here on the islands. I would love to buy more or a different variety from a store or online, but I've been told that soliciting PDFs here would be deemed illegal. That just makes me even happier to have a happy, breeding pair in my own back yard! =)

I suppose something I should have asked before is, how much do froglets tend to eat? I've watched the BlackJungle videos and the adults ate tens of them within seconds, and munched on the ones that got away throughout the remainder of the video. I've never seen my frog eat more than one at a time -- but how many would/should it eat throughout the day?

I have been reading "leaf litter" a lot in various threads -- and I'm really wondering if there is an alternative to them. I don't like the idea of wet, dead leaves dirtying my terrarium, so I'd like to know if adding more artificial leaves (or strands of leaves) around the terrarium (in an aesthetically pleasing fashion) would do the trick. I understand froglets need more hiding places to feel secure, so would dampened artificial plants work just as well?

What you mentioned about the dusting, I've never heard before. I didn't realize it will slow down the FF and potentially make them easier to eat. I have held off buying dusting agents because the pet store owner I spoke to said it's unnecessary. Also, there doesn't seem to be just one multi-vitamin/calcium powder out there which means I'll end up spending more money than I hoped to.

Something my older brother used to do for his Jackson Chameleons was he'd crush Kirkland calcium pills into a fine powder and then sprinkling it on the crickets. His Chameleon lived for years and its horns/body had no defects. Would that be a safe alternative for my PDFs? Could the same be applied for a multi-vitamin found in the local store?

Thank you everyone who has been helping me out! I knew DendroBoard was the place to go for help from other enthusiasts! =)
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Old 09-25-2010, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

[QUOTE=crzsnwbdr;507724
I have been reading "leaf litter" a lot in various threads -- and I'm really wondering if there is an alternative to them. I don't like the idea of wet, dead leaves dirtying my terrarium, so I'd like to know if adding more artificial leaves (or strands of leaves) around the terrarium (in an aesthetically pleasing fashion) would do the trick. I understand froglets need more hiding places to feel secure, so would dampened artificial plants work just as well?[/QUOTE]


I have to smile at this as you live in Hawaii ...land filled with tropical plants! You will have to look long and hard on this board to find people using fake ones. I am not all that plant literate but there are many species that you could use in your tank that you could probably find in your area. You do not have to have leaf litter but most people use it not only because it gives security to the frogs but it can provide a good place for microfauna like springtails that will break down waste in the tank ..as well as being an additional food source for your froglets. Since you have their parents living in your backyard you could probably lift a rock or piece of wood and grab a handful of soil to add to your tank that would have springtails, isopods, etc that would be great for your frogs.

I am not sure about the calcium your brother used but most pet stores do carry Rep Cal Herptivite and CalciumD3 which are what most people use as well as RepashyICB. Many sponsors on this board carry these products if you need to order them. You need them because the froglets diet will be limited by what your provide them..maybe just fruit flies. Their parents have access to various things that are obviously keeping them healthy enough to live and breed. Although I have been enjoying your other thread and am interested that your backyard darts seem to be living in an enviornment with a lot of concrete!

Anyway keep reading threads ..!

Sally
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Old 09-25-2010, 03:42 AM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

Dusting is VERY important.

The Repashy Calcium + ICB is a complete multi-vit. It's relatively new(Also smells like overly sweetened bubble gum!), and has been getting rave reviews.

Now, there is some discussion about whether certain vitamins, minerals and/or whatnot prevent the uptake of others. I think the main concern was something interfering with the picking up of calcium, and that's why doing the dusting at different feedings was wise.

I'm no expert in the area myself, but I have heard some convincing points of views from those more science-minded in the nutrient area than myself about keeping to two different dusts, most notably the Repcal Herptivite & Repcal Calcium with D3.
Again, I don't know the details, but something to look into if you feel like some reading & some learning.

I personally have both the Repcal Herptivite & Calcium + D3 as well as the Repashy Calcium + ICB, and switch it up.
(I also have the Repashy SuperPig, but that's not such a main staple like the others. Just helps with pigmentation. Hence the Pig in SuperPig!)

I also lay off the dusting sometimes to not let any non-water soluble things build up to dangerous levels in my beloved frogs little bodies. With my froglets, I dust every time I feed. I either do two smaller feedings or one slightly larger feeding daily.

I put enough dust in my fruit fly shaker cup so that each fly is powdered up, but a small enough amount there's not powder/smoke pouring out the cup as I tap the fruit flies to their death. I try to do it so there's not really any powder left in the bottom of the cup when feeding time is over.

I don't really notice the flies moving much slower at all when dusted for any mention-worthy amount of time. Perhaps just right at first they are a wee bit slower, but they get to a`movin` & a`shakin` pretty quick as they flop to the bottom of the tank.

Your froglets shouldn't have trouble catching them either.

And just for the record, all these different dust nutritionsupplements ARE DIRT CHEAP!!

If your pocket book(or anyone's on here, really) is hurting so bad you seriously can't afford to buy dusts right now, I'll be happy to divide some powder off into a small container & mail it to you.

FYI Average price for Repashy Calcium + ICB is 8-10 bucks. The average cost for the RepCal Herptivite and Repcal Calcium + D3 is about the same, $4 per container.

Your growing froglets will need, and will like, all the nutrients they can get!

As far as crushing up the Kirkland calcium pills, I'd say, just buy Repcal or Repashy instead. It will already be pulverized into a powder for you, saving you some crushing time, and will have so much more than just calcium, which D3 is needed to process the most efficiently anyways.

Alright. Hope that helps a little.

Sincerely,

~Tobias

Quote:
Originally Posted by crzsnwbdr View Post
@srrrio
What you mentioned about the dusting, I've never heard before. I didn't realize it will slow down the FF and potentially make them easier to eat. I have held off buying dusting agents because the pet store owner I spoke to said it's unnecessary. Also, there doesn't seem to be just one multi-vitamin/calcium powder out there which means I'll end up spending more money than I hoped to.

Something my older brother used to do for his Jackson Chameleons was he'd crush Kirkland calcium pills into a fine powder and then sprinkling it on the crickets. His Chameleon lived for years and its horns/body had no defects. Would that be a safe alternative for my PDFs? Could the same be applied for a multi-vitamin found in the local store?

Thank you everyone who has been helping me out! I knew DendroBoard was the place to go for help from other enthusiasts! =)
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Old 09-25-2010, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

I didn't even think to ask, and perhaps you mentioned it, but I didn't catch it: What type of fruit flies are you feeding them?

As I, and others stated previously, your froglets do look perfectly healthy, in the photos anyways, but there are several varieties of fruit flies out there, and some may be a little big for froglets to catch and gulp down...

I think I did read earlier in your post that you said they were wingless, not just flightless, so probably the standard Drosophila melanogaster apterous, which are smaller than Turkish Gliders, and much smaller than Hydei. If that's what they are they should be perfect for auratus froglets.

Although shortly after morphing I do start tossing some Turkish Gliders in to my froglets too, and they should be able to take them up pretty easily after two weeks+ out of the water.

Anyways, just a thought it was worth doing a double check on.

~Tobias
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Old 09-26-2010, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodysHero View Post
If your pocket book(or anyone's on here, really) is hurting so bad you seriously can't afford to buy dusts right now, I'll be happy to divide some powder off into a small container & mail it to you.

Alright. Hope that helps a little.

Sincerely,

~Tobias
Thank you for the kind offer, but I will be stopping by the local pet store this afternoon to purchase some supplemental agents for my froglets. My only concern is -- would it make the flies less attractive (taste bad)? I'm concerned about my froglets' eating habits as it is, and really I don't want to do anything that will prevent them eating more.

Also, I do use the "Drosophila Melanogaster Wingless" type I purchased from eBay.

Just yesterday I walked beside a stream and noticed under the leaf litter there were these tiny little bugs. I didn't have my camera with me, so unfortunately I can't provide an image. They look a little larger than the springtails I've been reading about, and are really abundant if I wanted to just scoop some dirt up. This stream is a clean area, free of pesticides/chemicals, and there are lots of geckos/birds/other small animals that roam around I'm sure. Would they be safe to try culturing (and ultimately feed my froglets)? In the process of building a proper vivarium, can I toss those little critters into the soil/moss mixture/substrate?

I've attached new photos of my froglets I took just a minute ago. They aren't as plump as I'd hope, so I'm willing to try something other than fruit flies (if available). Because of the baited fruit I leave in the tank, it attracts winged fruit flies which throws off my daily count. I'm not sure how many of which are eating, how many are climbing out, etc.

On the plus side though, they do seem active though, scurrying off beneath the leaves when they see me approaching -- so I do believe that's a good sign they are healthy.
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Old 09-26-2010, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: Beginner Help: Is my PDF eating?

Ok, first off, no. The dust will not make the flies less tasteful for your froggies. I would guess, if anything, they make them taste better. I'm sure these companies do plenty of testing to ensure their product is not only healthy, but tasteful enough frogs actually eat it. I've never noticed any behavior that would indicate otherwise.

Secondly, the flies will actually be MORE attractive, as they will be lighter coloured because of the powder covering them, and therefore easier to see for the frogs young eyes.

The apterous (Wingless, or literally, 'without flight') you purchased are perfect. Down the line, as your frogs grow, you might want to get something a little bigger, like Turkish Gliders, just to give them some variety, but it's not necessary.

As far as the bugs under the leaf litter by the stream, I wouldn't do it. Insects can carry all sorts of nasty stuff you don't want your frogs having, and even though they are wild caught frogs, they might not already have what some of those bugs may be carrying. It's just a safer bet to get a springtail culture from someone, and go from there. I would recommend doing this, so you can appropriately seed your tank.

Froglet #2 does look a little small, but he/she is also young, and right out of the water they are a little skinnier sometimes, so I wouldn't worry. It should be the same roundness as your frog #1 within a week or so.

I have springtails available as well, as I'm sure several people here do. You might be able to find them on e-bay as well. I like to know who I'm getting my cultures from, of any type, as to not get a dirty culture...

Speaking of dirty cultures: Hopefully when you get your Drosophila melanogaster apterous they are already a clean culture, free of mites. It's strongly recommended you get some anti-mite paper to line the shelf with you set your cultures on. Or, if you don't want to spend the money on that mite paper, you can do the water trick, which is the method I use, and it works great! Basically get a shallow pan or some other type of container that you can put an inch or so of water in, and set your culture in that. Mites can not swim, can not fly, and if they can jump, it's not very far. By having your culture sitting in a small amount of water, it will keep it mite free, thereby increasing it's life span by several weeks.

Now is also a good time to learn how to make your own fly cultures, if you don't know how to yet. That way when the culture you ordered shows up, you can keep feeding indefinitely. You can either purchase dry media to use from myself, or from the many other distributors out there, or you can make your own. If you PM me, I'll happily type up an ingredients list as well as instructions for you. You can also search this forum and find plenty of good recipes.

Alright, it looks like you're on the right track, and it's definitely good to see someone just getting into frogs asking so many important questions! It's sad how many people out there jump right in to PDFs and have none of the knowledge they need, nor look for it. So HORAY for you!!

My last comment would be to get at least a ten gallon for your two auratus. A 5 gallon is probably just barely big enough with them being so small, and you can successfully plant them up pretty darn thick, but putting those two in a ten that's set-up good will give them a more comfortable home for a longer period of time. Still a 20 long might be a little more on par with what two adult auratus would like best, but a ten should tide you & them over for a good, comfortable while. Take a look around the forum for posts on building terrariums. There's plenty of good stuff to read, and plenty of great, thorough instructions. And again, myself, as I'm sure tons of others here, are ready to help at any time. Feel free to private message anyone here, or post another forum entry to get more info as you need it.

Hope your frogs are doing great, and that you're getting good info out of this.

Sincerely,

~Tobias

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Originally Posted by crzsnwbdr View Post
Thank you for the kind offer, but I will be stopping by the local pet store this afternoon to purchase some supplemental agents for my froglets. My only concern is -- would it make the flies less attractive (taste bad)? I'm concerned about my froglets' eating habits as it is, and really I don't want to do anything that will prevent them eating more.

Also, I do use the "Drosophila Melanogaster Wingless" type I purchased from eBay.

Just yesterday I walked beside a stream and noticed under the leaf litter there were these tiny little bugs. I didn't have my camera with me, so unfortunately I can't provide an image. They look a little larger than the springtails I've been reading about, and are really abundant if I wanted to just scoop some dirt up. This stream is a clean area, free of pesticides/chemicals, and there are lots of geckos/birds/other small animals that roam around I'm sure. Would they be safe to try culturing (and ultimately feed my froglets)? In the process of building a proper vivarium, can I toss those little critters into the soil/moss mixture/substrate?

I've attached new photos of my froglets I took just a minute ago. They aren't as plump as I'd hope, so I'm willing to try something other than fruit flies (if available). Because of the baited fruit I leave in the tank, it attracts winged fruit flies which throws off my daily count. I'm not sure how many of which are eating, how many are climbing out, etc.

On the plus side though, they do seem active though, scurrying off beneath the leaves when they see me approaching -- so I do believe that's a good sign they are healthy.
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:48 PM
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@Tobias,

You've been such a great help with information you've already provided for me.

I actually tried to get springtails from someone on the forums, MichelleSG, but she informed me that shipping springtails is not permitted into Hawaii. I will search around locally, and ask the local pet stores, but I won't hold my breathe for something like that.

I read online somewhere that frogs like something called "white worms" and so I purchased a culture on eBay. Unfortunately the person I bought them from has been MIA with nothing coming in the mail (I'll have to follow up with eBay and Paypal on the matter).

As far as the stream bugs I found, I agree it would be the safer option not to use them. I would hate to risk contaminating the new vivarium I will be building.

Speaking of which, I haven't yet purchased a new tank, but am in the process of collecting what I need to build a 20 gallon (long) vivarium. I actually created another post here just the other day asking for some necessary information. I have already found a nice piece of wood down by the stream I'll need to cut and bring home, along with small plants that seem to grow well without any soil (air plants?). Along with that, I have quite a few small plants that seem to grow on the sides of cement (in my yard) which look nice and bushy, that I plan to add to the crevasses of my design.

I have a third froglet on the way (perhaps another 2~3 days before the tail is completely absorbed) and I think I'll need to get started on the vivarium soon. Is there a right amount of time they should be held in a smaller environment (if at all) for ease of catching flies?

I have been using the same FF culture for about 3~4 weeks now and I noticed the food on the bottom is running very low, and there aren't the huge swarms of flies climbing up the sides anymore. I have tried starting my own cultures soon after I received my first (using a potato flake recipe I found online) but only one of the two is doing well. I see what looks like grains of rice covering the sides (not sure what step of metamorphosis that is) but there should be enough soon to divide into more containers again. Additionally, I will be using the water trick, and perhaps leave a few tiny fish to eat up what potential mosquito larva are bound to arise.

Again, thank you for helping me out. I'm glad to see I found a good forum that has members so willing to share their knowledge!
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:24 AM
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As far as right amount of time to be in a smaller environment,.. no, not really. Usually bigger is better almost always. They actually need to be in the habit of hunting around a little tiny bit.

And as far as gathering wood about, AWESOME! I wish I knew of a good place around to find the right kinds of wood to last in a terrarium. My only advice would be to back the hell out of it. Nasty things can live in/on wood too. I even bake what I buy from places! I also boil sphagnum I use as substrate. It might be a little bit more than most do, but it can only help.

If you want to get real hardcore, you can send your frogs fecals in for testing before you put them in their permanent home. Not only can tanks get dirty from throwing in insects found by the creek, but the frogs themselves might already be carrying something!

This process isn't for the faint of heart though. If your frogs have something, you might have to give them medicine everyday, followed by putting them into a new container after they get their med dose. This can go on for weeks or months! Then you send fecals in again,.... and hope it all worked.

You can always get them into a nice home, and just realize when/if you send off fecals, that home might have to be retired.

I'll jump over to your terrarium building post after this, and see what's being shared over there. I'm sure you're already getting great advice though! If I can think of anything to add, I will.

Good luck with your babies! Very exciting that you have local Hawaiian auratus!!
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Old 09-28-2010, 12:34 AM
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@Tobias

I actually came across this thread just a little while ago, and was stunned at how real it looks: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/par...-vivarium.html I will be looking around for some wood this week (just visited the pet store today and saw that a small piece costs $10.99!!) and if I can't find any, I may decided to design my own the way I want it to look.

It's funny you mention the fecal samples, because just this morning I found a bunch over the leaves this morning. That to me was a great sign that they're both eating. I don't however think I will be taking the samples to a vet -- that seems a bit unnecessary for a hobbyist like me.

As always, thanks for the tips!
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Old 09-30-2010, 07:30 PM
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Is there a trick to getting your froglet to eat? I just moved my third froglet into my small setup four or five days ago. Majority (and I mean 90%+) of the time it remains in the water dish I left in there, and has not once approached the feeding station. It seems to interact fine when the other two froglets come around the water dish, so I can't imagine it is stressed by its siblings. Flies are abundant (but not too many to stress), and they are properly coated too. So I'm not sure if it can't find the flies, or just isn't attracted like the other two are.

I understand some froglets may take up to a week to begin eating, but now it's torso is almost half the girth of its head, and it has me worried. It's still strong enough to hop around (as I was trying to tweezer a fly in front of it this morning) but it just doesn't want to eat. I read somewhere that a drop of sugar water on its back may help give it energy, so I tried that too -- and nothing. Is there another trick others use in these situations?
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:08 PM
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First thing is: Keep out of the tank! I can't stress enough how much hands moving around a tank can stress a frog... Some frogs can even get stressed to death by messing around in their home too much. (I've seen a beautiful pair of red amis die this way.)

Open the lid to feed, and let them be besides that so they can build up strength.

Most froglets won't eat much or at all for the first few days out of the water. After absorbing their tail, they aren't hungry for a bit.

Definitely don't dangle things in their face. They've been doing this in the wild for a long time. I'm guessing stress, but could be wrong.

Try lower your concern for a number of days, open the tank just to put in a few flies, and make sure there's not an abundance of fruit flies walking everywhere, as getting walked on a lot will stress the hell out of them too.

Also, sometimes frogs morph unhealthy. Just as problems like SLS occur, there can be problems with development on the inside we can't see.

I think one of the biggest beginner mistakes, and I was very guilty of this too, is seeing what's going on with their frogs too much. Worrying when they haven't been seen for a couple days, then hunting around in their tank for them,.... As tempting as it is, it's a HUGE no-no. If they weren't unhealthy before, it's likely to make them so through stress.

All in all, they're probably fine. Take a picture of the most recent one and post it so we can all see. It's probably all right....

Also a lot of froglets will stay pretty stationary their first few days out of the water... Just relax a little, take a deep breath, give them some space, and hopefully you haven't been in there to the point it's caused irreparable stress.

All in all you're doing right. Doing your research, asking questions, and making them a good home.

Give it a few days, then touch base here, and let us all know the progress.

Someone might have more advice on the subject, but I think I've pretty much covered most there is... Definitely look & ask around though. More knowledge is always a good thing!

Sincerely,

~Tobias

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Originally Posted by crzsnwbdr View Post
Is there a trick to getting your froglet to eat? I just moved my third froglet into my small setup four or five days ago. Majority (and I mean 90%+) of the time it remains in the water dish I left in there, and has not once approached the feeding station. It seems to interact fine when the other two froglets come around the water dish, so I can't imagine it is stressed by its siblings. Flies are abundant (but not too many to stress), and they are properly coated too. So I'm not sure if it can't find the flies, or just isn't attracted like the other two are.

I understand some froglets may take up to a week to begin eating, but now it's torso is almost half the girth of its head, and it has me worried. It's still strong enough to hop around (as I was trying to tweezer a fly in front of it this morning) but it just doesn't want to eat. I read somewhere that a drop of sugar water on its back may help give it energy, so I tried that too -- and nothing. Is there another trick others use in these situations?
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:19 PM
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Thanks for the info Tobias. Because my first two froglets took off on their own within two days after completely absorbing their tails, the fact that this one is taking so long has had me worried. It also morphed much smaller than the other two, so my initial concern was that it had developed prematurely. I should have included an image to my post, and will do so later tonight when I get back home. It is incredibly skinny -- unhealthy really.

I hope I didn't frighten it to the point of exhaustion or worse this morning. I had read somewhere on the forums that someone had success hand feeding his juvenile/froglet to the point it started eating on its own -- and I was hoping for that same luck.

As for lifting the lid, I have a mesh screen top that's large enough for me to toss in the flies without ever opening it up. It's rather convenient, and ever since I started dusting the flies, they tend not to be mobile enough to move around too much from where I drop them.

Additionally, I drip water along the top of the mesh screen and let the water break up and fall to wet the leaves/moss almost daily (it resembles rain actually) -- I found spraying/misting water seems to disturb the frogs/flies too much so I stopped that.

The only time I ever lift the lid is to replace the water in the dish (which I do twice a week). I haven't recently since the new froglet hasn't moved out of the dish, and I don't want to scare it any more than I already have. I also wait until the froglets are hiding before I do so, to allow them a bit of security when I'm cleaning it. The reason I do this is because my first froglet (almost a year ago) died most likely to bacteria in the water.

I will give it a few days, and be sure not to disturb it more than I can help. I'll be sure to update here what I find.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:33 PM
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I'm not trying to scare you from opening up your tank either. I open some of mine almost daily to check for eggs, feed, & whatnot. I just try not to disturb the frogs much... You're welcome to reach in and do what needs to be done.

As far as someone hand feeding their froglet: WOW! I've never heard of such a thing. That's definitely the exception, not the rule. Most frogs will start doing worse, not better with that much in your face interaction.

Looking forward to seeing the picture.

Again, you're doing great overall. Keep up the research and asking questions... If only every new frog owner did as much investigating as you...
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:00 PM
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I am not as seasoned as these guys on here... I have just recently bought a azureus from reptiles etectera at the Tucson Show and love my guy... But the thing I have seemed to notice about my froglet/juvi is that he loves standing on the ground rather then the leaves when it comes feeding time... I would suggest that you just dump the flies in on the ground and ignore the fruit for the time being because I notice my little guy doesn't really like flies grouped up but waits till they disperse =P
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:18 PM
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I am not as seasoned as these guys on here... I have just recently bought a azureus from reptiles etectera at the Tucson Show and love my guy... But the thing I have seemed to notice about my froglet/juvi is that he loves standing on the ground rather then the leaves when it comes feeding time... I would suggest that you just dump the flies in on the ground and ignore the fruit for the time being because I notice my little guy doesn't really like flies grouped up but waits till they disperse =P
It's funny, because I always wondered about that. I had a feeling some froglets may be intimidated by a large group of the flies, especially when the froglet's size isn't all the big either.

I would remove the fruit, but my first two froglets are already comfortable eating around the area, and never eat immediately when I toss them in (which is the same time everyday). Not only that, the fruit is just about the only thing keeping my flies from walking all over the place (and on my froglets) or out the screen top. :P
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:32 PM
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Did you heavily plant the vivarium like I recommended?

Heavy plantings and leaf litter are very good for froglets and near acquires to feel less stress

and

the plantings will prevent the flies from constantly running all over eveything and stressing the frogs.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:44 PM
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Did you heavily plant the vivarium like I recommended?

Heavy plantings and leaf litter are very good for froglets and near acquires to feel less stress

and

the plantings will prevent the flies from constantly running all over eveything and stressing the frogs.
I haven't planted anything in it seeing as I would stress the frogs while I dig holes in the soil/moss. I did however cover the entire tank (except the feeding area and water dish) with leaf litter. The first two froglets are comfortable enough to hop around in my presence, and hide under the leaves when they want. The third froglet has only moved from the water dish a handful of times, always returning minutes later. I didn't want to cover the dish with leaves because I thought it would be a bad mix -- decomposing leaves in a stagnant pool of water.

And the bit about the flies -- they hardly ever move more than a few inches away from the banana I put inside.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:51 PM
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Go to home depot and buy a Pothos plant.

Take it home and cut it with sissors and just randomly toss several vines of it into the viv. It will thrive wherever it lands. No planting nessa.

Where did you get your fruit flies? There may be an issues there, where the flies are not being found edible by the frogs.

I wonder if you are having problems because the frogs are wild caught or from recent wild caught and are hardwired to eat other insects and not flies. They may be eating several other arthropods for example, none of which remotely resemble a fruit fly.....
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Old 10-01-2010, 12:12 AM
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Go to home depot and buy a Pothos plant.

Take it home and cut it with sissors and just randomly toss several vines of it into the viv. It will thrive wherever it lands. No planting nessa.

Where did you get your fruit flies? There may be an issues there, where the flies are not being found edible by the frogs.

I wonder if you are having problems because the frogs are wild caught or from recent wild caught and are hardwired to eat other insects and not flies. They may be eating several other arthropods for example, none of which remotely resemble a fruit fly.....
I bought my Drosophila Melanogaster Wingless on eBay here: link I assume my first two frogs have no trouble with the flies, although I never see them actually eating any. What I do see are feces on top the leaves, and that they are getting pretty sizable around the waist; both things I take as a good sign.

I am not concerned with the (dusted) flies themselves, but why is it that this third froglet is taking considerably more time (almost twice as long) than the first two to begin eating them.

Although these flies may not be in the wild around my house, I have successfully fed both the parents on separate occasions the flies I bought -- and they gobbled them up rather quickly.

On a side note, are pothos vines closely related to vine-looking weeds I have in my yard? If so, I can start clipping those (in bunches) and toss them inside to grow. In fact, I plucked those very leaves (then cleaned with hot dechlorinated water) which is what I use for my leaf litter currently.
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Old 10-01-2010, 12:20 AM
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Before I forget, are 'white worms' something I can try to feed my froglets? I found a link about them here: link

I previously ordered some on eBay which haven't arrived. After solving an initial issue, I am able to re-order them if you or others may recommend them. They won't replace the flies, but will be an additional source of food I can leave sitting in a bottle cap for them. (They can also be easier to measure in quantities.) It reads on that website "They will make your frogs fat if overfed." so I figure they should be a nice source of fat/energy for growing froglets. Any thoughts/comments?
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Old 10-01-2010, 04:45 AM
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I personally would not bother with the worms; your froglet is more likely to eat the fruit flies. You can scrape some of the maggots from your ff culture and put on your fruit station or bottle cap and most frogs enjoy those quite a bit.

Just a thought, it maybe not the best idea to introduce imported feeders to your wild frogs in the backyard. I would hate to see you working so hard to feed their offspring and then in the meanwhile some pathogen introduced by accident kills their parents. Hate to bring that up and perhaps someone more knowing in that area will offer their opinion as to whether that is a valid concern.
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Old 10-01-2010, 05:41 AM
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Just a thought, it maybe not the best idea to introduce imported feeders to your wild frogs in the backyard. I would hate to see you working so hard to feed their offspring and then in the meanwhile some pathogen introduced by accident kills their parents. Hate to bring that up and perhaps someone more knowing in that area will offer their opinion as to whether that is a valid concern.
Sally
That is such a good point. I would hate to influence the parents' well being by feeding them something foreign. I want to keep them good and healthy -- especially since this morning I saw the parents playing together (which I have only seen rarely) and calling. Thanks for the heads up! ^^
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:26 PM
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I recently got 2 azuereus froglets and 1 of them eats his/her share while the other one just sits and watches. The one that watches is slightly smaller while the other turns into a golf ball eeerr I mean marble. I'm not really sure if the smaller one doesn't like the vitamins or what since it seems to spit the flies out when eating them, however either don't seem to notice the flies when I add them without the white supplements. Any suggestions?
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:45 AM
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It's been a week now since I made the rookie mistake of trying to hand feed my third froglet. But I think once I de-stressed, so did it -- and now it looks healthier than ever! It's funny, because of the three froglets this one is now the boldest, and doesn't run away immediately after catching sight of me like the first two do.

Here are some images I took today/yesterday. The bottom picture is one I just captured a few minutes ago. Perhaps they're calmer at night -- nowadays the older frog (on left) would scurry off before I can take photos. Enjoy!

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