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question re: silicone and foam

2K views 6 replies 3 participants last post by  SLEDDER23 
#1 ·
Longtime listener, first time caller. Nice site, lots of nice people. Nothing like a well run forum of good people for the dissemination of knowledge.

OK, on to the questions. I’ve searched, and not found them previously asked. If I’ve missed them, my apologies.

First, I'm a bit confused on the use of GE Silicone II, which is what I see everyone (?) suggesting. When in the past I have read discussions on GE Silicone for fish, it was always suggested that the Silicone I should be used, not II because II has a mold/mildew inhibitor, and is not as safe for animals as the Silicone I which has no such chemicals. I believe someone on cichlid-forum.com actually posted an email stating the same from a GE rep "off the record". Apparently they do sell Silicone I to aquarium manufacturers for tanks under a certain size. Any thoughts? Is there a reason for the apparent preference for Silicone II over I on this board that I’ve missed?

Second question: Has anyone tried a product called “rockin’ foam”? I’ve read of it before, and bought some at a local pond store. It is for helping build waterfalls for ponds; you stack rocks fairly stably, then spray this foam in the cracks, or add it to shape the waterfall and/or stream bed. It says all over that it is 100% safe for animals, non-toxic, yada yada. I’ve seen some reef tank pros use this to build a reef display for a salt-water tank, and I’ve got to think it would have to be fairly safe for that. Also, since the foam is black/charcoal, it supposedly resists UV light much better than Great Stuff. Also, it is minimal expanding. As for consistancy and feel, it's similar to minimal expanding insulation foam, not as fast drying though.

I’ve tested this in a patch in my viv, and am preparing to do a foam back wall. From what I can see from my small test dabs, this foam may be able to pass as rock all by itself. In texture/gloss it looks similar to the rock wall built by s.ling with foam, paint, epoxy. I’ll post a pic maybe if it comes out, it sure is a lot easier. I’m just wondering if anyone else has tried this product and has any recommendations or concerns.

Thank you to all that make this a great site, and thank you in advance for you $.02
 
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#2 ·
Welcome Sledder!
Rockin Foam looks like really great stuff..... :roll: No pun intended....
Sorry for that! But, it really looks cool. The only two places that I found it on the internet the price was $20.00 for a 20oz can.
It also says that it does not expand as much as Great Stuff. I tend to fill up a lot of room in my vivs when spraying Great Stuff in and I like the fact that
#1 - It expands so much and
#2 - It is only about $5.00 a can.
I wish that the Rockin Foam was a little cheaper.... But, on the other hand.... What is $20.00 when we are putting $100 frogs into the tanks afterwards.... :wink:
 
#3 ·
Welcome to the board :)

I don't use either I or II, but a close relative IS808, which is basically the same thing as II but for contractors. Here is a quote from another message I wrote:

I'm pretty sure the brand name aquarium silicone is just GE IS808 based on a comparison of Material Safety Data Sheets. IS808 is food grade silicone and is the only one tenatively recommended by GE for underwater applications (reference same link). You can get a 10oz caulk gun tube for abou 5 bucks versus 15 for the aquarium silicone. I am fairly certain that aquarium sealant is just repackaged stuff from an upstream manufacturer like GE or DoW. I haven't checked, but I don't think that there are more than a handful of places that acutally make the silicone.
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5246

Here is the GE page:
http://www.gesilicones.com/silicones/ge ... SESSION=NO

Of interest is probably this part:
Q: Which silicones do you suggest for underwater submersion?
A: GE Silicones are not recommended for underwater submersion for porous substrates. Over time, water will seep into the bond line and adhesion failure will result. Some customers, though, have had success using silicones like IS808 and RTV108 for sealing aquariums made out of nonporous materials, like glass. Please remember it is your responsibility to test any GE product in your application to determine fitness of use.

Q: What products meet FDA compliance?
A: Several GE Silicones RTV silicone rubber compounds can be evaluated for food contact applications where FDA, USDA and NSF regulations apply. FDA STATUS The following RTV silicone rubber adhesive sealants may be used in repeated contact with foods under FDA regulation 21CFR177.2600 "Rubber Articles Intended for Repeated Use" (and, by reference, 21CFR175.300 "Resins and Polymeric Coatings").
RTV102 RTV109 IS802 IS800.09
RTV103 RTV112 IS803
RTV106 RTV116 IS806
RTV108 RTV118 IS808
You can see that IS808 shows up in both places, so that is what I use. Most "aquarium safe" silicone at the pet store is just repackaged IS808 or something similar. I got the MSDS for aquarium silicone for one vendor at it showed that it was in fact just GE IS808. If you have a Graingers or similar B2B store around, you can get IS808 on the cheap. As to the difference between GE I and II, the biggest issue is the mold inhibitors. Most folks use the II and just make sure that it isn't for "wet areas" which means mold inhibitors. So, people buy door and window, not bath and kitchen. I prefer to just get the IS808 and go through a little more trouble.

As far as the foam goes anybody that says that anything is 100% safe for animals is selling wolf tickets. This like most simlar products is spray polyurethane foam. You can market it however you want, but it is largely the same except for the additivies. All polyurethane foams are subject to degradation because of water contact, UV exposure, microbial attack, etc. I don't know if the foam being black has anything to do with it being UV resistant, but that seems like a weird assumption since black wll absorb more light probably including the UV band. If it is more UV stable, it is because there is an additive in there. It may happen to be black or it just may have a secondary additive that is a black dye. If you read about GS on the forums, you can see that there has been reams written about it, many by me. Until somebody does some real research, it is all guesswork. My assumption is that "Rockin Foam" is just some repackaged foam made by somebody else that is being called 100% safe because it doesn't contain any of the "official" carcinogens or toxins tracked by the FDA/EPA/etc. That said, if you can figure out which agency regulates safety of products to be used in the pet (not food industry) then you are one step ahead of me. What I use is the FDA/USDA standard for what is allowed to be used in commercial farming operations. If this foam is approved for say catfish ponds used to breed catfish for commercial consumption, then it may be safe or at least safe within the limits of current research being done by an underfunded EPA/FDA/USDA. Last I checked there weren't any spray polyurethane foams that were (a) approved for food contact (aka food safe) or (b) approved for water contact. That said, most folks use polyurethane foams without any noticeable effects on their animals. If I were you, I would ask them for the MSDS of the product. This will reveal the manufacturer. I'm guessing it may be Fomo who makes the waterfall foam some people buy. Armed with that knowledge you can see if you can find it cheaper than 20 bucks.

Also, remember that in a well planted tank, your background will probably be covered with creeping fig, bromeliads, moss, etc. So, having the "perfect" background may seem like a big deal now, but a year from now when you have a full grown vivarium it will be hidden behind layers of lush growth.

Look at this tank and you will see what I mean:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5766

A stunning, small tank.

Well, I better stop typing now, before I get even deeper in the weeds and somebody rolls their eyes about me babbling about plastics, foams, and silicone again :wink:

Marcos
 
#4 ·
BAM!! Exactly what I was looking for!! Thank you Marcos

2 issues of clairification on the foam:

The black color is from Carbon, not dye, so they say it is less likely to break down. The UV stability is supposedly attributable to the color, though I'm with you on questioning that.

Also, I paid $14.00 for it. I think I've seen it for less than that at a LFS, but online, it is all $20.00.

My main concern now is that although I would like to have the back somewhat planted, IMO a lot of the tanks that I see with 100% plant covered back look a bit chaotic to me. just my taste, but I would like a back ground that looks good on it's one for some time. Also, if it is "100%" safe, then it doesn't need covered with Silicone, so a lot less time involved. From the examples I've seen of this in reef tanks used to stabalize live coral formations, I have to think it is reasonably non toxic. At least I hope... :?

I'm kind of already down the road now, as I've already sprayed some foam around the false bottom to stabalize it's position, so I think I'll continue on my current course, and see how it does. If anyone's interested in the end result, I'll post pix.

Thank you again Marcos for you reasoned and knowledgable reply. I wasn't rolling my eyes at all! That was the best I had hoped for.
 
#5 ·
Marcos

BTW, I very much liked the look of your tank. I felt the need to retract my earlier statment about plant covered backgrounds to some extent after seeing it. It looks very orderly, I think due to the fact that you seem to have limited it to several like species of plants as opposed to one of everything. Looks very nice. Thanks for the inspiration!

John
 
#6 ·
John,

Glad you found the information useful. For the record though, that isn't my tank, it belongs to a European dendroboard member Nathalie. It just is the best example of keeping it simple making a wonderful looking tank. I'm sure she will appreciate the feedback. I look at that tank whenever I think of embarking on some crazy DIY project to remind myself to keep it real :)

Marcos
 
#7 ·
Roger that! I agree on the keeping it simple. It is an excellent example. Seem like a nice mix between the needs of the frogs, the ascetic requirements, and a bit of Zen mixed in for good measure. Very peaceful. Thanks again for all your input and clairification!
 
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