Tadpole Diet and Color - Dendroboard
Dendroboard

Go Back   Dendroboard > Dart Frogs > Beginner Discussion
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read Advertise

Support Our Sponsors
No Threads to Display.

facebook

Like Tree1Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2005, 10:11 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,684
Thanks: 1
Thanked 104 Times in 69 Posts
Default Tadpole Diet and Color

The 'tricolor's stripes and color' thread (http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4978) turned up an interesting topic not just isolated to E. tricolor but could effect any species that seems particularly diet-dependent color. While many of us have debated the use of color suppliments (peprika/beta carotine/canthoxanthin for reds/yellows and sprulina/chlorella for blues and greens) for those who DO suppliment to attempt to get full wild type color, the debate is when to do it.

To summarize what's been talked about:

Brought up on the thread by Brent (bbrock) was a certain window when the frogs are young for best supplimentation to effect coloration. For example adult E. tricolor 'santa isabel' that have never been supplimented are a bubblegum pink color, and from personal experience these (adult) animals put on the same regiment to color up as my other tricolors (including the same bloodline) don't color up much more than they already are. Supplimented frogs (fed sprulina tadpole diets) of this morph may get a nice blood red but may never the lipstick red of the wild frogs from what I've seen. From my own animals with significant supplimenting via beta carotine in all stages of life (including tadpole) have gotten to be this bright red, or pretty darn close.

Quoting Brent (cuz he says it best):
"Ben Green recently posted pics of vittatus that showed one that was fed beta carotene fish flake food as a tadpole and another that was not. My experience with this same line has been that if you don't feed the color enhancing flake food, then you will never get the bright red-orange stripes no matter how much you supplement with paprika after they morph. Like Corey, I think the tadpole stage is really the key point to get the color on frogs. That's a little hard to do with pumilio [and other obligate eggfeeders]"

If Ben could post that pic here, that would be awesome

Often these days I hear about people feeding sprulina powder as their tadpole food and I wonder at the coloration and size of these animals later on (I've seen a general trend of small froglets recently so I'm not at all satisfied with this). I take colors close to wild type as a healthy sign, as well as large froglets coming out of the water. When I was breeding good numbers of E. tricolor a couple years ago I worked with their diets as tads after seeing relatively uncared for froglets (morphed out in tanks) morph out twice the size of my first batch of "specially cared for" tads.

While I realize some of the small froglets might be due to inbreeding and what not, I do believe a lot of it has to do with size as well, at least from my experiences with tricolor, truncatus, and imitator. I don't keep springtails because none of these frogs morphed out to a size where they didn't take melanogaster or even hydei (tricolor) as their first meal.

Thoughts, comments, and tadpole care/feeding regiments wanted!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2005, 10:48 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default Re: Tadpole Diet and Color

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeroKero
If Ben could post that pic here, that would be awesome :)
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/vi...light=vittatus
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2005, 12:44 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

I don't know why this thread is dead. It's a great subject. So I'll add... Matt Mirabello ran controlled experiments where he could consistently produce a skunk or non-skunk pattern based on how he raised the tads. I believe that communal rearing produced skunk patterns but could be wrong. I've raised auratus communally in large tubs (5-6 gal. of water) and did not see a consistent pattern. Interesting.
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
 
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2005, 01:18 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,684
Thanks: 1
Thanked 104 Times in 69 Posts
Default

Its funny this was more popular under the last thread than standing on its own lol. Matt M. also had some nice stuff on tinc coloration when supplimented..... and I dunno if you've seen his tads or froglets but they are massive so his diet obviously has something other diets lack. I'll bug him to post since he doesn't read the boards much.

There is also the possible difference in froglet size and hardiness with the thumbnails.... parent raised vs. human raised.

Then there is HOW we raise the tads, could we be a little *too* controlling of the environment? Tricolors showed an increase in size by grazing the "sludge" found in many fish tanks (mosty bacteria grazing) and isn't found in the nice new (or freshly cleaned) containers many tads go into. I know some others have had similar luck with this and thumbnail tads. Just rising and putting new water in, not scrubbing the sides to get rid of the bacteria slime.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2005, 04:19 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

I couldn't remember the details on Matt's tincs and yes, his frogs are nice looking honkers.

My thoughts on tadpole morph size is that it is influenced by time in the water. Too warm of temps, of course, can speed development and lead to frogs morphing fast and small. I wonder if a rich diet could do similar. However, P. vittatus tads reared on their own by just grazing on algae and microbes living in the pool in the viv tend to morph smaller than flake fed tads. But they are very robust and I've never seen one morph out in the viv that didn't survive and thrive.

I guess we have our own private thread.
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2005, 03:10 PM
tikifrog's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: East Bay, Ca.
Posts: 617
Thanks: 6
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Sorry to intrude! I'd like to jump in with galactonotus if I may. I have had a small clutch of yellow galacts morph. The parents are a nice yellow. The previous batch had color similar to the parents. These are much more orange. They are 10 days out of the water. The previous tads were fed primarily an algae mix, and were morphed in the viv with the parents. This group received mostly "rich mix" and other prepared foods. Their eggs were pulled and the tads were raised in 16oz delis. Is it possible that these froglets may fade to a more yellow color as they age? Has anyone encountered variations in their galact clutches?

John R.
__________________
When frogs become outlawed, only outlaws will have frogs.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2005, 10:16 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I haven't really tested the timing needed to add the color enhancers with the vittatus tads. I feed on alternating cycle of color flakes and spirullina flakes. I have a few tads in the same group right now coloring up. They are more yellow than normal. I haven't feed them the color enhancing food for the last two weeks, so I am guessing that the color food needs to be fed when the tads are starting to color up ( just after the appearance of hind legs). Interesting thread.
Thave likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2005, 04:51 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bgreen
I haven't really tested the timing needed to add the color enhancers with the vittatus tads. I feed on alternating cycle of color flakes and spirullina flakes. I have a few tads in the same group right now coloring up. They are more yellow than normal. I haven't feed them the color enhancing food for the last two weeks, so I am guessing that the color food needs to be fed when the tads are starting to color up ( just after the appearance of hind legs). Interesting thread.
Man this thread is getting crowded ;-) Before I went the lazy route and let the frogs do the work, I fed vittatus once a week with color flake from the time they were eating flake.

Many years ago someone said that blue and green colors tend to be structrual while reds and yellows are pigment. That's true in birds but I don't know about frogs. If so, it suggests that supplementing with spirulina should have no effect. So I'd like to hear more about trials of using spirulina and any other blue/green supplement and why you think it did or did not work.
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2005, 06:30 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Siren,WI
Posts: 4,548
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Is that to say (about the green being structural), that a frog will be just as green whether it grows up on spirulina or fed eggs (imitator for instance)? Or does it mean that if the animal grows up without proper diet, they will never be as green as an animal who had?
__________________
Brian T. Sexton
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2005, 04:04 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancing frogs
Is that to say (about the green being structural), that a frog will be just as green whether it grows up on spirulina or fed eggs (imitator for instance)? Or does it mean that if the animal grows up without proper diet, they will never be as green as an animal who had?
The insinuation was that the blue or green is just there regardless of diet. I know in birds these colors tend to be due to the structure of the feather influencing the way they reflect light. But in frogs I wonder if it is a combination. It's pretty clear that we don't have as many color problems with blue and green frogs so there may be something to this. On the other hand, people, including me, have dusted ff with spirulina for auratus and felt like they got better color. In my case I think it may have been as much imagination as anything else.

And then I start wondering about possible combinations. Maybe there are green/blue structural colors that are modified by red/yellow pigment and vice versa.

But back to the red color problem. I still want to try red spider mites.
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2005, 04:09 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

red spider mites now that sounds interesting. anyone know how they get there colour?
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2005, 06:37 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,684
Thanks: 1
Thanked 104 Times in 69 Posts
Default

My personal experience with keeping/breeding blue and green frogs isn't much. Looking back on it... its just odd. They've mostly been red, orange, or yellow lol. I need to branch out.

All my imitators morphed out the same bright colores as their parents, not matter the diet. This included green imitators, an orange imitator, and intermedius. Supplimenting didn't change their colors noticibly.

Azureus are blue no matter what you feed them. There are those that are supplimented with something that border on purple, but thats more of an "improvement" (probibly beyond wild type colors) but I don't see the colors as being anywhere near diet dependent like the reds in tricolors and pumilio.

I think there are varying degrees of diet dependency of color. Many tincs don't show yellows or oranges nearly as nice as the WCs, and supplimenting helps, thats somewhere in the middle between truely diet dependent (pumilio and tricolors) and "improvement".

This different could come in how the colors are expressed in the frog's skin. There are a number of chromataphores responsible for color. Melantophores are the obvious black or brown. Xanthrophores (and erythrophores if you want to be picky) generally do the reds and yellows - this is the pigment controlled by carotines in the skin (and influenced by diet). Iridiphores are generally responsible for the blues and greens - the group generally not changed much by diet. So why are there reds, oranges, and yellows that are very diet dependent, and a bunch (mostly thumbnails come to mind) that aren't diet dependent at all?

Iridiphores are actually capable of producing any color on a frog depending on how they reflect light, these are NOT diet dependent colors, and since they can produce any color, we can hypothesize that the non-diet dependent reds and what not are actually iridiphores. Most of these will appear "metallic" looking, like the orange of intermedius and most thumbnails that I've seen up close.

This is actually also something I've noticed with different bloodlines of truncatus. In the multiple lines of yellow truncatus there are the "flat" yellows and the yellows with a more metallic "orangey yellow" (Kelly/Black Jungle line). Due to not having the animals to test my theories, I haven't gotten to play around with diet and color on these guys, but I believe the Kelly line carries more iridiphore coloration, at least in the stripes, (the metallicness seen in the bloodline) than say the Samples bloodline, which has a flat yellow color.

That was a fun little digression, I was thinking about it all through herpetology class today after we talked about amphibian coloration.

I want you to try the spider mites too, lol. I'm crazy about possible new food items, especially if they are tiny enough to feed to the really small froglets. Aphids would be great too if I had enough frogs to get me to bother keeping them longer than the summer.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2005, 06:47 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,684
Thanks: 1
Thanked 104 Times in 69 Posts
Default

Oh, kinda forgot a bit on the green. Green isn't usually a color produced by the chromataphores, but is usually an interaction between xanthophores and iridiphores (yellow + blue = green). In green auratus you might get a bit of a change in color with supplimenting, but it might only be a little bit because you are only really influincing half the color (in this case the yellow, make it a bit more vibrant).

Thus the "intermediately" influenced colors are probibly the half iridiophore, half xanthophore colors.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2005, 12:57 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,627
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

I wish I knew a way to produce spider mites. I cant even imagine how red they would turn a tri color! I really need to get a mortar and pestal for my paprika. It just isnt sticking to the ffs enough and I really want to get these guys colored up as soon as I can now that you guys seem to think the longer you wait the less color they will gain from supplementation. Right now thay are over two months old.
__________________
UP THE PUNKS!
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2005, 01:27 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,627
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Hey Kero what school are you going to that you are taking a course in Herpetology? Im thinking about going back to school for biology but I really cant handle any math and all and its really discourageing me from even starting.
__________________
UP THE PUNKS!
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2005, 01:37 AM
joshua_delancey69's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,131
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Ok just out of curiostiy where can i get a powder form of peprika/beta carotine/canthoxanthin for reds/yellows it would be interesting to test a couple of these theories on my own.....I like to reasearch with some things and this would be a safe project........thanks
__________________
[email protected] 4238170738[/color]
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2005, 01:55 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Saint Petersburg, Florida
Posts: 1,114
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Most grocery stores carry paprika, it is in the spice section. It usually isnt fine enough to stick to flies so I recommend using a mortar/pestle or putting it in a blender to grind it up a little. I have used it on my leucs and they definitely seemed to color up, I havent supplemented with it for awhile and they are almost yellow.
__________________
Jacob Potts
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong"- Voltaire
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2005, 03:56 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

I use to get red spider mites from an entomologist friend who used them as a model for population biology experiments. His culture method was simply to grow a bench full of pea plants under lights and let the mites go to town. All the plants were sickly from the infestation so if a plant died, he just replaced it with a fresh one.

Do a google for tanning supplements and canthoxanthin. You should find sources. Just BE CAREFUL with it because it can be toxic if overdosed. Fish food for color enhancement is a good source for beta carotene as are carrots and sweet potato. You could either gut load crix or dry and grind to make powder.
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2005, 12:06 PM
joshua_delancey69's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,131
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Great info Brock
__________________
[email protected] 4238170738[/color]
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2005, 07:23 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,627
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Last night I tryed grinding the paprika with a spoon on a plate. It worked perfectly and now it sticks to the flys with no problem. Im going to check the indian store soon and see if they have some of the real deal that is even stronger then the stuff at the market. I wonder if saffron would work better then paprika. I know its very strong but also very expensive. If you arent familiar with saffron it is the stamina from a safron flower. Its used in cooking alot to give things bright red and yellowish colors.
__________________
UP THE PUNKS!
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2005, 07:30 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

GREASER i've always wanted to try saffron but like you said it's so expensive. if you do try please let us know if it works.

Has anybody ever tried tummeric it the most potent(colour wise) spice i've ever seen it stains everything, id be curious too try it. but it's yellow not red.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2005, 08:51 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Summerville Sc.
Posts: 269
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

It was rumored that Perdue colored up their chickens with marigold petals in their diet.
__________________
Timothy Stout
[email protected]

auratus-Panama-G&B 04, AH 04, leucomelias, pumilo- Green and Yellow Rio Guarumo 07, Almirante 05 Man Creek 07, tinctorius- Yellow Back, imi's, vents- grey leg, inibico red, intermedius, panguana lamasi, variabilis
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2005, 02:26 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This thread is great, I have also been thinking about this subject for a while. I raise Discus also and we use different products to enhance colorations with various products. http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/showt ... hp?t=40937
You might want to look into this product. It is an all natural product and many seem to get good results from it.
SharynB
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2005, 04:02 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Has anyone tried the Rep-Cal Herptivite with beta carotene. On the container it says it can be used with reptiles and amphibians. So it might work. More info at http://repcal.com/supp.htm#Herptivite
hope this might help some.
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2005, 06:53 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

SharynB, does the NatuRose come in a powder form?

Hexen84, That is one of the suppliments I use to dust my frogs, but it doesn't seem to be the amount needed to color up the red frogs. You need to add more to he diets of the orange and red frogs.

I bought 2 sweet potatos today, and will be drying them and grinding them into a powder. At $.78 per pound it is worth a try.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2005, 08:52 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,684
Thanks: 1
Thanked 104 Times in 69 Posts
Default

Herptivite is the vitamin I use with all my reptiles and amphibians, I don't believe there is enough beta carotine in it to go beyond vitamin A needs, which is what it was designed for. It wasn't designed to have the higher amounts of carotine to enhance color. Its a great vitamin btw.

Trista - Its great to hear some feedback from the fish area, as that group has experiemented with color supplimentation more than the reptile world has. I knew there were a number of fish products out there so its great to see the crossover

I worry about the astaxanthin as I really don't know anything about it and cantaxanthin is pretty strong stuff (Brent knows more about this). I wonder if it would be best to gutload the feeders or add it to the dusting powder? Possibly add into the tadpole flakes? Use sparingly?

Brent - keep us updated on the sweet potato dust I was actually thinking of adding it as an ingredient to tadpole flakes, but never actually got around to doing it when I had tadpoles, I have a lot of color fish flakes around to use (betta or rainbow color flakes) and got lazy.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2005, 09:54 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I have been looking up the NatuRose and found this site...
http://www.aquafeed.com/article.php?id=584&sectionid=
It said
Quote:
After 8 weeks, it was found that all three carotenoids were deposited in the tissues, however groups fed dietary astaxanthin had the highest levels of tissue astaxanthin (16.5 mg/kg body wt.) This result was 23% higher than those fed canthaxanthin and 43% higher than those fed -carotene.
This site has a little more info on Astaxanthin http://www.astaxanthin.org/astax.htm
I am very interested in this as a suppliment additive, but don't want to kill off frog either!
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2005, 10:25 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

We need Ed K. on here because he's the nutrition guru. I did a very quick google on astaxanthin and didn't relly find what I was looking for but found that it is pro-vitamin A like other carotinoids including canthaxanthin. Making some really wild assumptions on very little information, I am inclined to be cautious until we know more. It sounds like astaxanthin may be a more potent carotenoid even than canthoxanthin so may have both greater potential to color up animals AND cause vit. A overdose. I believe fish tend to be a very good source of vitamin A which makes me wonder if they can process and tolerate these pro-vitamin A compounds better than amphibians. I think Ed explained why beta-carotene is a safe source of vitamine A which might be helpful in sorting it out. Like Ben, I'd be very interested in this supplement but wouldn't want to blow up any livers.
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2005, 12:20 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This is very interesting, didn't know if it would be of any help or not, I learn something everyday.
Trista & SharynB
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2005, 01:39 AM
Ed Ed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 19,301
Thanks: 321
Thanked 2,731 Times in 1,793 Posts
Default

Depending on the species (and type) caretenoids can be converted into vitamin A (there are some species that appear to be either unable to efficiently convert caretenoids or are unable to convert them at all (so far this appears to be restricted to a few Bufonids)). The fact that a caretenoid is a provitamin A precursor does not mean that the levels of A will increase (unless there is some underlying other pathology) as the animal will only convert what is necessary.

As it was explained to me by the nutritionist at work, some of the caretenoids such as astaxanthin and canthaxanthin are not as safe as was once believed as there has been an increasing number of cases of liver disfunction in animals fed these as a color supplement (note not due to vitamin A but due to the caretenoid itself). It appears that, these supplements need to be used in moderation (and still may be a risk due to the small size of the frogs). In addition as I understand it, ingestion of ethanol can increase the risk of hepatotoxic effects with the ingestion of caretenoids (so is the alcohol content of the media an issue?).

Here is a paper that points out liver lesions in rodents due to canthaxanthin http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/j ... 35je08.htm and this one contians a table listing aplastic anemia from overdosing on them http://www.aafp.org/afp/990301ap/letters.html

Betacarotene to date has been shown to be very nontoxic and general symptoms of overdosing appear to be transitory (orange color of skin and some other tissues).

Depending on the species of amphibian, there are several different methods by which pigment activity is conducted. If the pigment depends wholly or partially on pterins (purine based) then the amount synthesized is insufficient to meet the "normal" color of the amphibian then the animal may lack the color for the rest of its life regardless of supplementation.
(If you want to see if the color is the result of pterins or caretenoids, take a dead frog, skin the frog, blend in acetone. The caretenoids will dissolve into the acetone allowing you to see the colors....

I hope this helps, (I don't consider myself a nutrition guru as there is just so much we do not know regarding amphibs.)

Ed
__________________
A phrase you never want to hear;
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."
Reply With Quote
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2005, 03:55 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
I hope this helps, (I don't consider myself a nutrition guru as there is just so much we do not know regarding amphibs.)

Ed
Sorry buddy, you're still the guru. There may be a lot unknown about amphibian nutrition but what is known seems to be in your noggin.

I knew if I threw out enough misinformation and drivel, you wouldn't be able to resist setting the record straight. Thanks for taking the time to clear things up.

Now for more questions. In the acetone blend test, if the color is both carotenoid AND pterin derived, wouldn't the test be inconclusive because it would give possitive results for carotenoids but no indication if pterins are present? Also, if I understand you right, the pterins are either synthesized or sequestered during development but not after development is complete. So any idea at what point pterin pigmentation ceases? Finally, and the question we all want to know. Can pterin be supplemented to enhance color.

I did a little search on pterin and found one interesting link: http://chemistry.lamar.edu/~martincb/research.html That shows folic acid contains a pterin ring. It would be interesting if frog pigment and spindly leg were linked to the same dietary source.
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2005, 04:28 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

The bottom half of this page is interesting although Corey pretty much already covered it: http://www.tightrope.it/nicolaus/ponta.htm

This one is interesting as it suggests that multiple types of carotenoids may be needed to fully color an animal http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/lin...d=c-vU1BZaF6N-
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2005, 02:05 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Another thought. Lycopene found in tomatoes and other fruits and veggies, is a carotenoid that has shown up in some of the searches on pigments. Dried and powdered tomato skins may be a useful supplement for color up red things. I wonder if that's the same stuff color up red bell peppers.
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2005, 03:08 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I found this guide to be help full.
http://food.naturalhealthperspective.com/carotenes.html
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2005, 01:38 AM
Ed Ed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 19,301
Thanks: 321
Thanked 2,731 Times in 1,793 Posts
Default

snip "Sorry buddy, you're still the guru. There may be a lot unknown about amphibian nutrition but what is known seems to be in your noggin."

I try to keep up on it but a lot of it gets published in things I cannot readily access.


snip "I knew if I threw out enough misinformation and drivel, you wouldn't be able to resist setting the record straight. Thanks for taking the time to clear things up."

The problem was that I had too much to do at home and work and had taken some time off from the computer (i had something like 250 e-mails after a couple of days).

snip "Now for more questions. In the acetone blend test, if the color is both carotenoid AND pterin derived, wouldn't the test be inconclusive because it would give possitive results for carotenoids but no indication if pterins are present?"

If you want to check for pterins, blend in ethanol/water.

snip" Also, if I understand you right, the pterins are either synthesized or sequestered during development but not after development is complete. So any idea at what point pterin pigmentation ceases?"

This is what it sounds like in the little bit of literature I have available. I suspect that it is possible for the animal to synthesize more but the info I have does not read that way.
Most of the xanthopores can also store caretenoids as wwll as pterins. For example (If I remember correctly), the belly color in Bombina is a result of pterins and caretenoids. (yellow = one of the pterins, the red is due to stored carotenoids (but there are red pterins but not in Bombina).)
Nothing I have gives an indication as to when pterin production ceases.


snip " Finally, and the question we all want to know. Can pterin be supplemented to enhance color."

Well it is purine based. An increase in the amount of purine in the diet would seem to be warrented to test this idea out.

snip "I did a little search on pterin and found one interesting link: http://chemistry.lamar.edu/~martincb/research.html That shows folic acid contains a pterin ring. It would be interesting if frog pigment and spindly leg were linked to the same dietary source."

Also not all pterins are colorful. It just seems that anurans contain many of the colorful ones (including the only vertebrate to contain a red pterin (at least that I can find a reference for)).
In the case of the folic acid, I think that this just an example of a named stable molecular section (serindipity in action) (but that is just my gut feeling and probably should be discounted).

Ed
__________________
A phrase you never want to hear;
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2005, 04:30 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
Well it is purine based. An increase in the amount of purine in the diet would seem to be warrented to test this idea out.
Purine is a nucleic acid right? Any idea what food sources would be high in purine?

Quote:
In the case of the folic acid, I think that this just an example of a named stable molecular section (serindipity in action) (but that is just my gut feeling and probably should be discounted).

Ed
Yea, we wouldn't want anything crazy like a "gut feeling" in this thread! ;-)

Thanks again for the info.
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2005, 12:29 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I have a breeding pair of tincs, "dwarf french guiana's" there yellow is nice and bright with only vitamin supplimentation and a varied diet. There tads are feed fish flakes and paprika. Somtimes they come out of the water bright and when they don't they brighten up within 2-3 weeks with just fruit flies and vitamine powder. I don't really need to brighten them up. Am I just lucky or am I just feeding them well. I have switched around my vitamins over the years. Fluckers, Reptilcal, and now Dendrocare. My P. aurotaenia look like gold glitter and my sipaliwinis are a bold blue. No color problems in my house.
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2005, 04:33 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guyelcamino
I have a breeding pair of tincs, "dwarf french guiana's" there yellow is nice and bright with only vitamin supplimentation and a varied diet. There tads are feed fish flakes and paprika. Somtimes they come out of the water bright and when they don't they brighten up within 2-3 weeks with just fruit flies and vitamine powder. I don't really need to brighten them up. Am I just lucky or am I just feeding them well. I have switched around my vitamins over the years. Fluckers, Reptilcal, and now Dendrocare. My P. aurotaenia look like gold glitter and my sipaliwinis are a bold blue. No color problems in my house.
Just a couple thoughts. One is that if you check your vitamins, I'll bet some of them use beta-carotene as the vitamin A source so you are adding a coloring agent there. The other is that yellow color doesn't seem to be as difficult to obtain through a typical diet. Reds seem to be the most difficult to color properly.
__________________
Brent
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2005, 05:58 AM
Rain_Frog's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Overland Park, KS
Posts: 3,964
Thanks: 46
Thanked 108 Times in 73 Posts
Default

whoa, thanks Brent. I can't believe I missed this one, flat out. I was the one that started this big convention!

Anyway, I don't know much about carotenoids, etc., but I do know the supplement I use a lot is Tree Frog dust by Sandfire dragon ranch. It is great stuff. It contains spirulina and marigold extract. I don't know what is in marigold extract, I could of missed it in one of these posts.

I will tell you this. I once kept goldfish, and had a lavender colored one. After I switched from flakes to Wardley's goldfish pellets (color enhancing formula), the fish turned mostly an intense orange.
It's main ingredient was marigold extract.

If the true chemical compound was mentioned under my nose up on further posts, please point this out. I'm sorry, I'm having a bit of difficulty reading it. I know somebody mentioned marigold extract for chickens.
What is canthoxanthin derived from?

Once again, I just hope it isn't too late to see if I can color up my tricolors. They are six months old now. I will ask Sean Stewart tomorrow what he feeds them. Two are a maroon, almost blood red . While the female is more that bubble gum color.

Does anybody suspect that red can also be influenced by sunlight? I have wondered that from day one, if full spectrum, intense exposure helps red pigment, like how we process melanin in our skin.

Ok, I'll look into the carotene supplement at the Natural Food Store near where I work. I went in there to find Flax seed for my hydei, and i can gaurantee that got some natural beta carotene supplement.
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2005, 06:12 AM
Rain_Frog's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Overland Park, KS
Posts: 3,964
Thanks: 46
Thanked 108 Times in 73 Posts
Default

Ed K, do you think a lycopene supplement is safe? I don't know if there is such a thing. Time is critical now, can't let my tricolors be ugly forever! Six months already AHH!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tad diet Qs MrGerbik Breeding, Eggs & Tadpoles 4 12-02-2008 02:34 AM
Tadpole color psychemjr Breeding, Eggs & Tadpoles 0 10-16-2008 05:57 PM
color of vivarium influencing color of frogs? johnnymo General Discussion 4 01-18-2008 04:48 AM
D. lamasi tadpole gaining color Member's Frogs & Vivariums 25 07-01-2006 11:39 PM
Creating an egg feeder tadpole diet!?!?!? Mantellaprince20 General Discussion 8 12-15-2004 05:31 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.