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Old 08-12-2020, 05:40 PM
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Default What went wrong?

Hello everyone, I’m not new to frog keeping I was just out of the game for a while and came back a few months ago. I have a setup, 20 gallon tall viv, with T-5 lighting and is hand misted daily. I bought a couple of Patricia Tincs from a local pet store about 1 1/2 to 2 months ago, and this last week tragedy struck when I found them both dead about a week apart. Both looking extremely skinny. I would feed them eod but when I noticed their skinniness I started to feed them everyday. I dose Reptical Calcium plus with every feeding. They would always be enthusiastic about eating and would hop around the whole tank until these last few weeks when they seemed a little more sluggish. I know I can’t get an exact cause of death on here without and autopsy, I just wanted to know if I was doing something wrong or maybe not feeding enough? Kind of a let down, was really hoping to see these guys to breed eventually.
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Old 08-12-2020, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

It looks like parasites stuff...


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Old 08-12-2020, 06:00 PM
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why would this be parasite problems?

Chances are you probably have setup problems. Post some detailed photos of your tank if possible.
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Old 08-12-2020, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?


This is a recent photo of the tank


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Old 08-12-2020, 07:06 PM
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Do you have any ventilation and what is the humidity in this tank?
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
why would this be parasite problems?

Chances are you probably have setup problems. Post some detailed photos of your tank if possible.

Itís only a suggestion. Maybe induced by stress (environment, shop conditions...) that broke the internal animal parasite balance...


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Old 08-12-2020, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

Yes there about an inch of spacing for ventilation, and humidity is kept around 80-90


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Old 08-12-2020, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

That's higher than I like to keep the humidity. What are the temps in the tank? High temp combined with high humidity can be deadly. Does anyone else use or know anything about Reptical products? I have never used them. I know that some reptile-targeted supplements don't have the right form of some of the vitamins our frogs need.

Mark
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

It can be very difficult to effectively aerate a converted aquarium, due to the fact that there is no real movement within the air column without use of fans or additional equipment. While your strip vent may allow some air exchange in the canopy section, the lower reaches of the tank can become somewhat stagnant. My initial thought would be that humidity was too extreme throughout much of the viv, which could allow excess bacterial or fungal growth that may have combined with a preexisting parasite condition to cause the losses. Additionally, Reptical is not a complete supplement for dart frogs, as they require specific forms of Vitamin A to allow for uptake, like Mark said.

Edit: Just looked up the ingredient bill for Repti Calcium, and it is just Ca carbonate, and a D3 source, so very lacking in additional vitamins and nutrients. I would switch to Repashy or Dendrocare for any future frogs, as well as addressing the potential ventilation issue.

Last edited by Dane; 08-12-2020 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 08-12-2020, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

Thank you for all the help, can I still use this setup for future frogs or is it a risk for new frogs? I put a lot of work into it, it would suck to have to take it down


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Old 08-12-2020, 08:23 PM
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Sorry to say but I think you probably already know the answer.. There is a structural problem with your vivarium due to the lack of proper ventilation. Putting new frogs in this is not a good idea, there is a good chance these would also die within the next months..

Other possible issues that I see are a lack of hiding places, leaflitter, dryspots, useable area's (except the bottom of the tank).. this tank looks not realy designed for Tinctorius in the first place..

Sorry for the bad news and the loss of your frogs.

You can always keep this tank as a plant tank. Use it as a show tank for growing rare plants or for plant cuttings you can use in other tanks..
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

Maybe you can fixit adding ventilation and changing your mind about the type of dendros. Definitely, not tinctorius


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Old 08-12-2020, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
Sorry to say but I think you probably already know the answer.. There is a structural problem with your vivarium due to the lack of proper ventilation. Putting new frogs in this is not a good idea, there is a good chance these would also die within the next months..

Other possible issues that I see are a lack of hiding places, leaflitter, dryspots, useable area's (except the bottom of the tank).. this tank looks not realy designed for Tinctorius in the first place..

Sorry for the bad news and the loss of your frogs.

You can always keep this tank as a plant tank. Use it as a show tank for growing rare plants or for plant cuttings you can use in other tanks..
I know that I'm pretty new to the hobby but can you address why changes couldn't be made to the tank rather than just not using it for darts?
1) couldn't coconut hides or something similar be placed inside to provide additional hiding places?
2) if ventilation is an issue AND humidity is to high would a fan that pulses on every hour or so be a work around?
3) if there isn't enough space for tincs then perhaps another species would work?
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

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Originally Posted by DigitalChromosome View Post
I know that I'm pretty new to the hobby but can you address why changes couldn't be made to the tank rather than just not using it for darts?
1) couldn't coconut hides or something similar be placed inside to provide additional hiding places?
2) if ventilation is an issue AND humidity is to high would a fan that pulses on every hour or so be a work around?
3) if there isn't enough space for tincs then perhaps another species would work?
Possibly. Passive venting is much easier to dial in than a fan, and doesn't fail/get weak unnoticed.

The 'space' issue (and hides issue, really) is in large part an inadequate use of any surface but the floor, so the most effective move would be a tear-out and rebuild. But then a person might as well start from scratch with a properly ventilating and more sensibly-shaped enclosure. A 20 tall isn't the easiest shape to adequately hardscape.
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:41 PM
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Everything socratic monologue just provided in his answer pretty much covers it.

I would add one more thing : if you would build a new tank, always chose a species first and build the tank fully adjusted and equiped for that species in mind.
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

You say you're misting by hand? How often and for how long? I ask because it looks like you have 2 inches of water in your drainage layer. It could be that your ventilation would work, if you reduced your frequency of misting and removed that standing water down there. Everyone's conditions are different. That being said, I mist my tanks by hand and I've never had standing water in the drainage layer.

Also, I didn't see you mention what the temps are in there. I know T5's can put off some heat. Like others have said, the constant 80-90% humidity with those lights are likely a big factor in their demise.

I think you can salvage this if you first dial in your misting/humidity and see what that does along with the temperature. You may also have to adjust the top for more ventilation as you experiment.

Also for the salvaging...There's a good amount of negative space. I think you could add wood/branches/cork to this negative space without having to tear everything down. You'd likely have to move plants, but that's better than going from scratch. Would also make it more suitable for inhabitants though.
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Old 08-12-2020, 10:05 PM
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Default What went wrong?

The temp of the tank is a constant 74 degrees and I mist once a day for about 10 seconds. I think I may try a different species and take everybodyís suggestions on modifying the ventilation and negative space. I will probably get a large log for a center peice and maybe cut out a hole on the top glass to install a small fan. Any more suggestions?


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Old 08-12-2020, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

To everyone: can pathogen issues be excluded from the possible causes of death? I mean, losing weight in spite of increased feeding is a big red flag. The 'local pet shop' source is also additional concern.

If pathogens were a possible contributing factor, what is the recommended frog-free QT period for the viv?
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Old 08-12-2020, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

The timing of it is what makes me suspicious, but it could be anything, really. They can pick anything up at the local store. Aggression or vitamin deficiency would be less likely for them to pass so close to each other. Same with pathogens, but I can't rule it out. There are enough potential things that could be wrong that it could be a combination of factors. Did the frogs seem to suddenly lose weight or was this ongoing from when you got them? Are they young?

There are some problems with the tank that make it less ideal for darts. More ventilation would help. The thing that I am sure Tijl was keying in on is the baby tears (if I am seeing correctly) in the bottom. Those don't grow very well unless conditions are a bit wetter than I like to keep most dart frog tanks. Also if I am seeing correctly, that is a tall 10 gallon footprint, right? 10 inches back to front makes that a very challenging tank to 'scape and ventilate. You seem to have a good setup for drainage, though I can't tell what the substrate is. If I was to do darts, I think I would try a larger vivarium. This tank could be a great grow-out tank. If I had to go with this tank, I might try E. anthonyii/tricolor. They like conditions similar to those. I would also make careful sure that you aren't spiking temps higher than the 74 when you aren't around to see them. A humidity-aided temperature situation could explain at least part of the frogs dying so close to each other.

So much guesswork. Sorry. Harsh way to join the board, but welcome, all the same :-)

Mark
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
They can pick anything up at the local store.
I should add that I was considering that local pet stores often source from national wholesalers, where most of the pathogen transmission likely occurs, who in turn source from literally anyone.

I was thinking that is a 12" x 24" '20 Tall', but now that you mention it, it does look like a 10" x 20" '20 Extra Tall'.
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Old 08-13-2020, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

I have little to say about the death of your frogs except I'm sorry for all three of you.

I can also add that if the problem is a hostile organism, you'll want to break its life cycle before putting new victims back in. I'm not going to play guessing games about the odds it's something like that though. Could be, might not be. Tiny little frogs are a bit delicate. Keeping animals involves a learning curve.

If you decide to retrofit that fish tank for airflow, you could use something like this:
https://ventmastersstore.com/collect...b-style?page=2

Obviously you'd need to match a glass hole saw to your vent size. Get the vents first (figure out how many you need...), measure the size of the holes you need to make, then get the right hole saw. First principles though - they call it a "fish tank" for a reason. Think it over.

I also am not a fan of a dense ground cover plant for little terrestrial frogs. Most folks use leaf litter. I also use leaf litter, for my tree snakes. Convergent evolution, nothing more, but...there can be such a thing as crowd wisdom. Or group idiocy, but hey. Ha ha.

Good luck!
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Old 08-13-2020, 03:42 AM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

This viv is way too wet. I typically mist 2-3 times per week a week, but that will depend on your rooms humidity as well as other factors. As mentioned you need some air flow. Additionally you really need to add some leaf litter. My leaf is relatively dry 80% of the time.

How long was this viv set-up before adding frogs? I'd recommend 4-6 months before adding frogs.
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Old 08-13-2020, 08:54 AM
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Default Re: What went wrong?

Quote:
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This viv is way too wet. I typically mist 2-3 times per week a week, but that will depend on your rooms humidity as well as other factors. As mentioned you need some air flow. Additionally you really need to add some leaf litter. My leaf is relatively dry 80% of the time.

How long was this viv set-up before adding frogs? I'd recommend 4-6 months before adding frogs.

This is all very very very dependable on the setup.. In some tanks I mist once a day for 5 seconds, other tanks I have to mist 5x 10 seconds a day.. Their is no correct answer on how much you need to mist, you have to read the conditions in your tank for that.

Only adding some leaflitter and putting some ventilation on the screan won't fix the problem.




For the OP:

It's best to (re)start with a larger setup that is designed for herp keeping. So you know at least that is correct. Reintroducing other animals into this, even with some minor adjustments is asking for problems in no time..

Using an old aquarium is making everything a lot more difficult , even experienced keepers have trouble keeping frogs healthy in these..
+
the setup inside the tank not correct and you need to be able to get rid of all that acces water. I realy recommend you to keep this vivarium and use it for plants. I think it would be a wast in trowing this away or redoing the entire thing because you still end up with a difficult setup for frogs to keep.. You'll be surprised how fun it is in keeping a 'scape'tank and how much of a learning proces it can be. I have one myself if you'd like to see it : https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...xer-upper.html

@mark:
The ground looks very saturated and yes, the baby tears hint to this. Good catch!
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Last edited by Tijl; 08-13-2020 at 08:57 AM.
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