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Old 06-20-2020, 07:01 PM
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Default First Feed - HELP!

Hi all! Just received my froglets today along with a melanogaster culture.
The culture is relatively new so very few flies crawling around, though tons of larvae. I’m sure the froglets were fed before they left breeder yesterday, but please tell me when/how to go about giving these guys their first meal.
I have equipment to keep culturing and I have several jars of supplements (Repashy Vit A Plus, Repashy Calcium Plus, Repashy Superpig, Herpavite, Rep-Cal Calcium with D3.)

How do I know when the culture has produced enough flies to take some out to feed my (3) froglets? When do I start a new culture? What do I dust them with and on what rotation?
I was feeling confident that I was going to follow Josh’s Frogs Mon-Wed-Fri feeding schedule with their vit rotation, but after reading thru this forum, I’m completely confused again.

I just don’t want my little guys to be hungry. What should I do?!
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Old 06-20-2020, 07:54 PM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriB603 View Post
Hi all! Just received my froglets today along with a melanogaster culture.
The culture is relatively new so very few flies crawling around, though tons of larvae. I’m sure the froglets were fed before they left breeder yesterday, but please tell me when/how to go about giving these guys their first meal.
I have equipment to keep culturing and I have several jars of supplements (Repashy Vit A Plus, Repashy Calcium Plus, Repashy Superpig, Herpavite, Rep-Cal Calcium with D3.)

How do I know when the culture has produced enough flies to take some out to feed my (3) froglets? When do I start a new culture? What do I dust them with and on what rotation?
I was feeling confident that I was going to follow Josh’s Frogs Mon-Wed-Fri feeding schedule with their vit rotation, but after reading thru this forum, I’m completely confused again.

I just don’t want my little guys to be hungry. What should I do?!

Well for one thing you don't have enough flies. A single culture not producing is a bad place to be. If you have a brick and mortar store that sells flies (some petcos will - or better yet a non-chain pet store) then you should go there now and buy a few more cultures. If you don't have anywhere near you then you should buy some online right now. I would definitely check around near you first as online will take a few days to arrive.

Anyway most folks are feeding new froglets every day.

If these are your only frogs then once you have a producing culture you will be making a new culture every week and have 4 cultures going at all times (meaning 2 will be new and not producing much/at all, 1 will be booming and 1 will be in decline). You feed from the boomer and the declining culture and start new cultures from a mixture of both.
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

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Well for one thing you don't have enough flies. A single culture not producing is a bad place to be. If you have a brick and mortar store that sells flies (some petcos will - or better yet a non-chain pet store) then you should go there now and buy a few more cultures. If you don't have anywhere near you then you should buy some online right now. I would definitely check around near you first as online will take a few days to arrive.

Anyway most folks are feeding new froglets every day.

If these are your only frogs then once you have a producing culture you will be making a new culture every week and have 4 cultures going at all times (meaning 2 will be new and not producing much/at all, 1 will be booming and 1 will be in decline). You feed from the boomer and the declining culture and start new cultures from a mixture of both.
This is good advice.
Getting this routine going well save your a ton of headaches.
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:23 PM
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I don’t think I was clear, the culture has tons of dark pupa all up the sides. Will these hatch in time to keep my froglets from starving? Called every pet store in an hour radius and none have fruit flies.
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:41 PM
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I don’t think I was clear, the culture has tons of dark pupa all up the sides. Will these hatch in time to keep my froglets from starving? Called every pet store in an hour radius and none have fruit flies.
When your frogs die for lack of food... /shrug I have no idea. Tomorrow... next week.. next month? No idea.

Your frogs are currently missing today's feeding and they will miss tomorrows as well unless I misunderstand the situation, probably the next 5 days worth of feedings as well. Then in a week or so you will have a culture capable of feeding your frogs (if it doesn't crash or get taken over by mites) for about 1 to 3 weeks depending on how the culture does.

If it were me I would go spend the 20 dollars or so from a brick and mortar store so my juvenile frogs don't have to struggle to survive in the first days/weeks of my ownership but its your tank and you are going to do what you want.
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:53 PM
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I’m an advocate of being a customer. Go to who sold you your frogs and flies. Ask them for help as it will likely be better than advice here.

Failing that, having your location might enable other people to help you figure where a store that has flies or someone who will hook you up for the time being.
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:57 PM
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I received them in the mail today from Josh’s Frogs. I have no trouble going to a brick and mortar store - NOBODY HAS FRUIT FLIES IN STOCK!

I came here as a newbie looking for help. Not to be made to feel like an idiot.

Thanks
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:58 PM
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I’m in NH Seacoast
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

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Originally Posted by CheriB603 View Post
I received them in the mail today from Josh’s Frogs. I have no trouble going to a brick and mortar store - NOBODY HAS FRUIT FLIES IN STOCK!

I came here as a newbie looking for help. Not to be made to feel like an idiot.

Thanks
Everybody has tried to help.

You should contact Josh's frogs, explain the situation you're in and see what they tell you to do. The culture they sent you with SHOULD have been producing flies so you wouldn't be in this situation.
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:09 PM
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Found some
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CheriB603 View Post
I’m in NH Seacoast
Another option is neherp (new England herpetology)
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:13 PM
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NEHerp is closed and not answering ph or email.
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:24 PM
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And I just want to add that in order to avoid just this very problem, I ordered FFs from NE Herp in advance, but they then notified me they are running about a week behind. Thanks for the help
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

I'm glad you were able to find flies :-).

A guy kind of local to me routinely makes extra cultures in case anyone in our province runs out of flies.
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Old 06-20-2020, 10:27 PM
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Found a Pet Smart that swore they had melanogaster but when we got there it was a tiny vial of hydei. Ugh. Bought them. Will still need more tomorrow. So sad.
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Old 06-20-2020, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriB603 View Post
Found a Pet Smart that swore they had melanogaster but when we got there it was a tiny vial of hydei. Ugh. Bought them. Will still need more tomorrow. So sad.
Join the Facebook group poison dart froggers. Ask if there is anyone in your area that has flies they can sell you. There is a bigger population on there then this board.
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Old 06-20-2020, 10:33 PM
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Thank you.
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Old 06-20-2020, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

Josh's can overnight a cx to NH for $20 in shipping. If your cx is not producing by Mon, you might call them and tell them what is going on and get FFs on Tuesday for $25. Likely you'll have FFs by then, but if not this is a backup idea. Hope things work out for you.
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Old 06-20-2020, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

Another option is springtails. You can use this so at the least the frogs aren't going with food. (Springtails are like candy for frogs, not what you want as the main food, but better than starvation)
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Old 06-20-2020, 11:10 PM
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Springtails are even harder to find. 😞
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Old 06-20-2020, 11:11 PM
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Placed an overnight order to Josh’s Frogs
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Old 06-20-2020, 11:19 PM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

So you just got your frogs from a reputable dealer. They sent you a culture that has dark pupae around the edge of the culture? I think you will probably be fine. You aren't far from having flies available and healthy frogs can usually go a week or more without food without any problems.

Fortunately, you have the right pieces in place to get you through. First, the froglets, even young ones, can survive for a few days without flies. Second, if the culture has dark pupae, you are probably no more than a couple of days away from a producing culture that will last you for a couple of weeks. Which species of frogs are they and how big?

I would immediately make a new culture out of the flies that are in there. They maybe a little bit old and tired, but it's worth a shot. Hopefully there will be a mix of flies from the generation used to start the culture and some precocious ones that have hatched early. Hopefully, this culture will produce for you. Regardless, I would take some of the flies that are going to hatch from dark pupae and start another culture. Your problem is not right now, it's coming. If it's a standard culture that is about to boom, you will likely have enough flies to feed your guys until the boom is over (depending on how big your frogs are, how many, how many flies are produced, etc.). Another boom could happen in that culture but that is a week and a half out and will not produce as many flies as the first one. You need to be thinking ahead to when you can't rely on this culture exclusively. That's why I would be starting cultures immediately. Even if you do all that, it can't hurt to order one or two more cultures from somebody and that will give you the flexibility to establish a rhythm of starting cultures moving forward. Specify that you want a producing one and one that will start producing in a week. For a few frogs, I would get in the habit of starting 1 every week or so. That will likely be too many flies, but better too many than not enough. If it was someone experienced, they could salvage the situation without ordering fly cultures (though it maybe stressful). Since you are new, you are going to reduce the stress by ordering some more flies. I still think you will be fine for a few days to a week with what you have, so probably no need to pay for expedited shipping.

Once you have started the cultures I talk about starting above (and maybe receive your new ones, if you choose to go that route), you can feed the remaining flies. Once they have laid, you can even feed the starter flies. I have been down this far in my production before where I had to feed every single fly I could find :-) What I write above is not the ideal but is also not hypothetical. I learned everything I am saying by having this exact problem, most recently with 100+ mouths to feed. It's not fun, but it's possible to recover from it.

For supplements, I like Repashy. I would do Calcium Plus at every feeding then swap in Vit A Plus and Superpig every 2 weeks or a month. Just one of those at each feeding and never have a feeding with no supplements. That's all the supplementation I would do. Store your supplements in the fridge and buy them new again after 6 months even though you will have a ton left over. Just throw it away.

Sorry you are having this issue. Everybody gets in a bind sometimes, myself included. I have had to be bailed out by friends more than once when something happens to my fly supply. That also brings up another point - find some friends! I know there are folks that live in New England that would be willing to help. Check some of the sub-forums to see who is up in your area. It's good to be able to rely on each other. Someday, you can help them when they run out of something.

Don't let it freak you out. Everything will be fine. It was wise to come here and ask questions. Finally, once you get through this crisis - read, read, read on this forum and continue to ask questions once you have done some research and you are at the phase of sorting out entirely opposite advice you are coming across :-)

Best of luck,

Mark
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Old 06-20-2020, 11:47 PM
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I 100% agree with everything @Encyclia said. And have also “been there.”

Hang in there. You identified the problem and are taking the appropriate steps.
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Old 06-21-2020, 12:17 AM
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Thank you, Mark! Was really upset by this reply from MinorHero (sorry, I can’t figure out how to add someone else’s comment to my reply)

“When your frogs die for lack of food... /shrug I have no idea. Tomorrow... next week.. next month? No idea.
Your frogs are currently missing today's feeding and they will miss tomorrows as well unless I misunderstand the situation, probably the next 5 days worth of feedings as well. Then in a week or so you will have a culture capable of feeding your frogs (if it doesn't crash or get taken over by mites) for about 1 to 3 weeks depending on how the culture does.
If it were me I would go spend the 20 dollars or so from a brick and mortar store so my juvenile frogs don't have to struggle to survive in the first days/weeks of my ownership but its your tank and you are going to do what you want.”

That was uncalled for and unhelpful.

I will definitely start a new culture ASAP.

Thank you for your encouragement.
I
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Old 06-21-2020, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriB603 View Post
sorry, I can’t figure out how to add someone else’s comment to my reply)
There's a little button that says "Quote" at the bottom right of each person's post. Type your message before or after the [Quote] business.

Pretty sure this was just one of those downsides to not being able to pick up on the intent of someone's post because we are just able to read text that someone wrote rather than talk to them directly. I think the intent was to help.

Stick with it. I think it will probably turn out fine.

Mark
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Old 06-21-2020, 02:22 AM
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[quote=Encyclia;3097984]There's a little button that says "Quote" at the bottom right of each person's post. Type your message before or after the
Quote:
business.



Pretty sure this was just one of those downsides to not being able to pick up on the intent of someone's post because we are just able to read text that someone wrote rather than talk to them directly. I think the intent was to help.



Stick with it. I think it will probably turn out fine.



Mark
I can virtually guarantee that minorhero meant to be helpful :-)

Some of us don't translate over into text very well. (I struggle with this myself)
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Old 06-21-2020, 05:29 AM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

I hope you'll be able to fix your fly problem. You got good advice and took immediate action, I'm sure your little ones will be fine.

What kind of frogs did you get anyway? Just curious.

Also, there's one thing I was wondering about...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriB603 View Post
Springtails are even harder to find.
Don't you have springtails in your tank already? If you don't you really should add them. Not only do they serve as a secondary food source for your froglets they also help to keep your tank clean. No tank is complete without them.

I always have a few cultures on hand to add more when needed.
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Old 06-21-2020, 09:59 AM
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Ugh

On my ph there is no “Quote” showing anywhere on anyone’s post. 🤦‍♀️ (I’d attach a screenshot, but no button for that either)

My order from New England Herp which contained my springtails has been delayed by over a week.

I had it timed out (I thought) So that everything for my tank would arrive a week before the frogs.

Neither BioDude nor New England Herp have even given me a tracking number or shipment date yet.

Even the tank arrived on time but was not the size I ordered so it went back and a new one will be here Monday (but nothing to put in it)

My tinctorius “Patricia” froglets are in a temporary 10 gallon tank on spag moss with hides and plants and the temp and humidity is perfect. It’s just the no food situation.

I did find a dart frog hobbyist 45 mins away who is going to give me 2 containers of producing flies this morning as he made too much. Will make cultures immediately from those and have more coming hopefully Mon, or Tues at latest from Josh’s frogs.

Realize now I made some huge mistakes. Lesson learned. Mostly just concerned for the frogs now.

Hoping by this time next week everything is here and frogs are happy and this will all be a bad dream.

Thanks again for your help
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Old 06-21-2020, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriB603 View Post
Ugh

On my ph there is no “Quote” showing anywhere on anyone’s post. (I’d attach a screenshot, but no button for that either)

My order from New England Herp which contained my springtails has been delayed by over a week.

I had it timed out (I thought) So that everything for my tank would arrive a week before the frogs.

Neither BioDude nor New England Herp have even given me a tracking number or shipment date yet.

Even the tank arrived on time but was not the size I ordered so it went back and a new one will be here Monday (but nothing to put in it)

My tinctorius “Patricia” froglets are in a temporary 10 gallon tank on spag moss with hides and plants and the temp and humidity is perfect. It’s just the no food situation.

I did find a dart frog hobbyist 45 mins away who is going to give me 2 containers of producing flies this morning as he made too much. Will make cultures immediately from those and have more coming hopefully Mon, or Tues at latest from Josh’s frogs.

Realize now I made some huge mistakes. Lesson learned. Mostly just concerned for the frogs now.

Hoping by this time next week everything is here and frogs are happy and this will all be a bad dream.

Thanks again for your help
Oh man! It's like the perfect storm of problems for you.

I would suggest asking if the hobbyist with the flies also has some springtails, most of us have a few cultures of springtails going. (I have 6-8 cultures of springtails going right now to re seed my tanks with).

Sounds like you've done the best you can in this situation :-) .

Keep us updated and if you have any other questions, please ask. We all want your frogs to be healthy and "happy" , even if we come across as snarky, we really do mean well.


On the quoting issue, if you're using the mobile website then there should be a checkbox on the post, click the checkbox and then there should be " symbol at the top, click that and it quotes what you're responding to. (You can select multiple messages to quote in this manner, check the checkboxes then click the " symbol)
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Old 06-21-2020, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Oh man! It's like the perfect storm of problems for you.

I would suggest asking if the hobbyist with the flies also has some springtails, most of us have a few cultures of springtails going. (I have 6-8 cultures of springtails going right now to re seed my tanks with).

Sounds like you've done the best you can in this situation 🙂 .

Keep us updated and if you have any other questions, please ask. We all want your frogs to be healthy and "happy" , even if we come across as snarky, we really do mean well.


On the quoting issue, if you're using the mobile website then there should be a checkbox on the post, click the checkbox and then there should be " symbol at the top, click that and it quotes what you're responding to. (You can select multiple messages to quote in this manner, check the checkboxes then click the " symbol)
Thank you!
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Old 06-21-2020, 10:23 PM
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Were you able to find springtails? Sent you a PM. Welcome to the hobby!
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:11 AM
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Are you anywhere near New England Reptile Distributors (NERD)? They’re in Plaistow NH. Granted I haven’t been to their store in a year or so since I moved to CA, but they always had a steady supply of FFs for sale in the past.
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Old 06-26-2020, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minorhero View Post
Well for one thing you don't have enough flies. A single culture not producing is a bad place to be. If you have a brick and mortar store that sells flies (some petcos will - or better yet a non-chain pet store) then you should go there now and buy a few more cultures. If you don't have anywhere near you then you should buy some online right now. I would definitely check around near you first as online will take a few days to arrive.

Anyway most folks are feeding new froglets every day.

If these are your only frogs then once you have a producing culture you will be making a new culture every week and have 4 cultures going at all times (meaning 2 will be new and not producing much/at all, 1 will be booming and 1 will be in decline). You feed from the boomer and the declining culture and start new cultures from a mixture of both.
I am a noob myself but I would just change once piece of advice. I would always make my new cultures from the freshest cultures that are producing (booming) not ones on the decline(mix of both) to do my best to prevent mites. Mites have a slower reproduction cycle than the flies. I also keep my declining cultures getting near the 3-4+week mark somewhere else to prevent cross contamination of mites. I like to switch frogs to hydei once they can start to use them which take an extra week to get going.
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Old 06-26-2020, 02:32 AM
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Not sure where you are in NH but I live in Groton MA near Nashua if you are still in a pinch I may be able to help. Most springtail cultures you will find from the local stores around here will be tiny starter cultures for $10. Not enough to keep anything alive unless you want to break the bank. You really need a master culture which will take some time to get going unless you buy one of those bigger cultures online. I have a culture of Melongaster and hydei that still have larva I could toss your way that both looks like it will have a second boom if I left them a day or 2. Since I make them weekly I usually stop using them before I have to, I also make them with extra fruit fly mix because I found them to be crashing from running out of food as the weather got warmer. I usually toss a bunch of flies out when feeding because cultures can crash from too many flies. I also found starting cultures with too many flies can be a bad thing.
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Old 06-26-2020, 10:59 AM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

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Originally Posted by aapuzzo View Post
I am a noob myself but I would just change once piece of advice. I would always make my new cultures from the freshest cultures that are producing (booming) not ones on the decline(mix of both) to do my best to prevent mites. Mites have a slower reproduction cycle than the flies. I also keep my declining cultures getting near the 3-4+week mark somewhere else to prevent cross contamination of mites. I like to switch frogs to hydei once they can start to use them which take an extra week to get going.
Mixing flies from different cultures is important. It helps to prevent the selection of traits from one culture only. If you're only using flies from your newest/booming culture then you likely selecting traits of quick reproduction. By mixing cultures your can get traits for early and late reproduction, helping future cultures to have multiple boom cycles.
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Old 06-26-2020, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

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Originally Posted by fishingguy12345 View Post
Mixing flies from different cultures is important. It helps to prevent the selection of traits from one culture only. If you're only using flies from your newest/booming culture then you likely selecting traits of quick reproduction. By mixing cultures your can get traits for early and late reproduction, helping future cultures to have multiple boom cycles.
That makes a ton of sense when put like that regarding selective breeding flies with quick reproductive traits (never considered that) but the person I was quoting wasn't using 2 different cultures with different genetic variation maybe a partial generation in between because of the extra week. It was just using the same line of flies in stages a few week apart. I was just pointing out that if you wait too long you can be introducing mites too because many guides point out you want to try and break the mite breeding cycle. The objective is to not have your cultures crash.

Last edited by aapuzzo; 06-26-2020 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 06-27-2020, 07:43 AM
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Default Re: First Feed - HELP!

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Originally Posted by fishingguy12345 View Post
Mixing flies from different cultures is important. It helps to prevent the selection of traits from one culture only. If you're only using flies from your newest/booming culture then you likely selecting traits of quick reproduction. By mixing cultures your can get traits for early and late reproduction, helping future cultures to have multiple boom cycles.
What you say has merit in theory and likely reality, however, I have had much success over a long period of time, sustaining my cultures without an emphasis on mixing cultures. I've used one culture to populate many subsequent cultures without a drop off in viability over extended periods. I also don't populate new cultures from the same developmental phase. Granted every now and again I get lazy in my routine, and need to source from multiple cultures to get what I need. But this is an exception to my methods rather than the norm. Historically I've sustained the same "line" longer than 5 years without feeling the need to restart with new genetics. When I have started over it was not due to productivity so much as it was due to my SOP's with regards to mite populations. My experience may not be "best practices" but I am happy.

I would echo what Mark (Socratic) said. I've been down to the last fly before, for various reasons. It happens. I don't have any immediate advice with your situation, but my suggestion is to network with some people in your area and have contingencies for potential disasters. Redundancy isn't bad. Meaning don't rely on just one plan. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
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Old 06-27-2020, 11:36 AM
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Just FYI - found cultures that day. Culturing my own and received more from Josh’s Frogs. We’re in very good shape. Thanks for all the tips
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