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Old 06-19-2020, 04:50 PM
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Default Acquiring a Group

Hi Everyone,

I'm curious how most people acquire small groups of dart frogs and prevent incest. I'm looking into getting about 4 R. Imitators, but it seems that if I get them all from a sole source they're probably going to be siblings and then they shouldn't be together and breeding in the future. I don't have immediate plans to breed and grow out froglets, but I would like to have that option open to me. Do most grow out their frogs after purchasing until they can sex them and then trade? Do you purchase them all from different sources? Do people just buy them from the same source and pretend they're not siblings? What's the standard practice here?
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:06 PM
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The word 'incest' only applies to humans; in animals it is 'inbreeeding'.

Inbreeding in darts is not generally considered to be such a problematic practice that it is not often worth avoiding for people breeding a single pair. Outcrossing has its own set of issues, too (mixing of different populations).

Not that I'm recommending this for darts (indeed, I recommend against it as do most people here) but intentional and strategic inbreeding of captive herps generally is the normal practice, and outcrossing is saved for only special purposes.
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: Acquiring a Group

When possible, you just ask the person youíre buying from if theyíre able to provide unrelated frogs. Some people can, some people canít.
(And in some instances, itís impossible to not get related frogs).

From what I understand, inbreeding doesnít really start making itself apparent until 6th, 7th or 8th generation, if Iím remembering correctly.

Maybe someone else can remember the specifics.

Whereís Ed when you need him. Haha.


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Old 06-19-2020, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Acquiring a Group

I am not a frog breeding expert, but, I have been breeding winged animals for a long time and I can definitely say problems can be seen in the first inbreeding.

In some animals such as frogs where they are not subjected to any type of strain, as in performance, we tend to not see faults. They are kept as a hands off pet in a tank where they don't move much so whatever inbreeding faults they have are not outwardly seen.

In probably all inbreeding projects there are a lot of specimens produced, then they are selected with only a very few to carry on the positive traits. In our hobby they are all sold and live in small tanks where we think they are good as long as they eat and breed, which is OK as that's their purpose.
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:27 PM
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... In our hobby they are all sold and live in small tanks where we think they are good as long as they eat and breed, which is OK as that's their purpose.
That's an interesting point.
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Acquiring a Group

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In our hobby they are all sold and live in small tanks where we think they are good as long as they eat and breed, which is OK as that's their purpose.
No, we don't think that. Anyone who sets the bar that low can speak for himself.
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:55 PM
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I am not a frog breeding expert, but, I have been breeding winged animals for a long time and I can definitely say problems can be seen in the first inbreeding.

In some animals such as frogs where they are not subjected to any type of strain, as in performance, we tend to not see faults. They are kept as a hands off pet in a tank where they don't move much so whatever inbreeding faults they have are not outwardly seen.

[...snip...]
It was my understanding that dart frogs are more resistant to inbreeding depression for a number of different factors, small, fragmented populations being one of them. I don't think it necessarily follows that it's incorrect that a CBB frog may not be well adapted for its ancestral environment, but I'm not sure that birds (I'm assuming) are a good comparison.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong -- I read through the archives about inbreeding a while ago and now I guess I'll re-visit since I can't remember...
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Old 06-23-2020, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
No, we don't think that. Anyone who sets the bar that low can speak for himself.
Yet, that is precisely what we do. One frog in a 30x30 is like us living in our house our entire life, with a fake sun and potted plants for decoration. Throw in some rats and mice for a cleanup crew and have a mister go off a couple times a day because "rain" is cool.

Breed with our brothers and sister too and move the kids next door to their own tiny house to do it all over again.

That bar has already been set and set by people who are deemed experts. Unless one can set up a full bedroom into one frog habitat for housing a pair, we are all speaking the same.

Most of us try to create the best conditions for our animals that will make them comfortable, but to say your frog is "happy" in a 30x30 and somebody else's in a 12x12 isn't, doesn't reflect actuality.

Captive bred pet animals usually never live in ideal conditions and it may not be excepted verbally but is so in actual practice. Often times by the same people who say otherwise. We all do it.
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Old 06-23-2020, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Fahad View Post
It was my understanding that dart frogs are more resistant to inbreeding depression for a number of different factors, small, fragmented populations being one of them. I don't think it necessarily follows that it's incorrect that a CBB frog may not be well adapted for its ancestral environment, but I'm not sure that birds (I'm assuming) are a good comparison.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong -- I read through the archives about inbreeding a while ago and now I guess I'll re-visit since I can't remember...
I don't know enough about frog biology to comment on them specifically. But, inbreeding is inbreeding no matter the animal.

A reason they may not seem as affected is because, as I've stated, they are not performance type animals that require physical exertion, thus we do not see outward faults. For example, a hunting dog, if that dog has any inbreeding depressions we will be able to see it's faults out in the field the first year. The same dog kept as a house pet and it's subsequent offsprings (kids, grandkids, etc) may not show anything until a few generations have passed because they are not asked to show faults.

Frogs are the house pets who are not asked to do much but eat, sleep, breed and crawl out of hiding from time to time.

The small fragmented populations may be the results of inbreeding. Small survival rate and those who live posses the traits needed to survive their environment. That is the equalizer in inbreeding. Produce a lot and weed out the weak. That is the basis of inbreeding. The ones who survive are the healthiest and best specimen to carry on their breed. It does not mean they don't suffer the same as other animals. Maybe even more so because why can't a frog with poison not take over the world?
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Old 06-23-2020, 10:56 PM
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[...]
Produce a lot and weed out the weak. That is the basis of inbreeding. The ones who survive are the healthiest and best specimen to carry on their breed. It does not mean they don't suffer the same as other animals. Maybe even more so because why can't a frog with poison not take over the world?
I didn't address your entire post because I don't have enough information at this time.

But as to the final question:
  • Very few frogs are highly toxic
  • The less toxic *do* have predators
  • Even the most toxic have at least one
  • Geographical and climatological barriers limit their ability to colonize
I don't think those fragmented populations are a result of inbreeding so much as geology. Lots of marvelously adapted animals don't leave their ranges and colonize widely in spite of seeming formidable. The most cosmopolitan species tend to be hardy generalists rather than distinctive specialists.
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Old 06-24-2020, 01:16 AM
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It was my understanding that dart frogs are more resistant to inbreeding depression for a number of different factors, small, fragmented populations being one of them. I don't think it necessarily follows that it's incorrect that a CBB frog may not be well adapted for its ancestral environment, but I'm not sure that birds (I'm assuming) are a good comparison.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong -- I read through the archives about inbreeding a while ago and now I guess I'll re-visit since I can't remember...
Correct you are.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...2005.tb00992.x

"A long history of inbreeding is expected to reduce inbreeding depression due to purging of deleterious alleles, and to promote outbreeding depression because of increased genetic variation between lineages"

https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/7/4/480/203406

"Dispersal by young mammals away from their natal site is generally thought to reduce inbreeding, with its attendant negative fitness consequences. Genetic data from the dwarf mongoose, a pack-living carnivore common in African savannas, indicate that there are exceptions to this generalization. In dwarf mongoose populations in the Serengeti National Park, Tanzania, breeding pairs are commonly related, and close inbreeding has no measurable effect on offspring production or adult survival."
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Old 06-24-2020, 01:39 AM
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Correct you are.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...2005.tb00992.x

"A long history of inbreeding is expected to reduce inbreeding depression due to purging of deleterious alleles, and to promote outbreeding depression because of increased genetic variation between lineages"

https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/7/4/480/203406

"Dispersal by young mammals away from their natal site is generally thought to reduce inbreeding, with its attendant negative fitness consequences. Genetic data from the dwarf mongoose, a pack-living carnivore common in African savannas, indicate that there are exceptions to this generalization. In dwarf mongoose populations in the Serengeti National Park, Tanzania, breeding pairs are commonly related, and close inbreeding has no measurable effect on offspring production or adult survival."
Thanks for that. The first reference I'm familiar with and was trying to remember. The second one is new to me.
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Old 06-24-2020, 01:42 AM
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You're quite welcome. Those were just from ten minutes poking around Google Scholar; someone who wanted to learn could find much more.
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Old 06-24-2020, 01:52 AM
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You're quite welcome. Those were just from ten minutes poking around Google Scholar; someone who wanted to learn could find much more.
I need to spend more time with Google Scholar; I'm pretty good searching with conventional indexes but it can be frustrating when you need deeper info.

Got back into frogs after a decade or so, and besides catching up on husbandry and equipment advances, I'm suddenly realizing there are huge swathes of information I never thought to wonder about my first go 'round.

For instance: frog ovulation. Sure I see it happening with my breeders, but it occurs to me I know next to nothing about triggers beyond vague ideas about age, rain and food.

Why does one female in a group pair off with a given male? Is she suppressing ovulation in the other females somehow? Why do her and the male appear monogamous? What happens if I remove the male? Etc. etc. etc.

I've been so fixated on raising and breeding the animals that I haven't looked very far into the "why" of things.
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Old 06-24-2020, 04:43 AM
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You're quite welcome.<img src="http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" /> Those were just from ten minutes poking around Google Scholar; someone who wanted to learn could find much more.
Google Scholar is an amazing resource....and is kinda like db in that it can be a rabbit hole...a much deeper one though
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