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Old 06-05-2020, 03:09 PM
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Default 20H horizontal & space

So far, from what I've been reading, you all here are willing to say if an enclosure is too small or not. The care sheets from other locations can vary quite a bit, likely depending on the vendor's goals and stock.

Anyway, I plan on converting my 20 gallon high tank in the future, and orienting it horizontally since I'm pretty much in love with P. vittatus. My question is then whether I'd be okay to have a trio or if they'd be better served by my sticking to a pair only.

Thank you all for being so informative and open!
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: 20H horizontal & space

Can you please provide the planned dimensions?
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:45 PM
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A standard 20 gallon high is 24" x 12" x 16" and I was planning on orienting it sideways, so it would be 12" high and 16" deep. If height would be more important I could leave it as standard, but since terrestrial frogs prefer ground space as opposed to height, I figured 16" of width would be preferable to 12".
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:51 PM
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Default Re: 20H horizontal & space

So 24Lx12Wx16"H or 24LX16WX12H" ?

I have A tank that is oriented as 24x12x16"H and i only have a single Dendrobates auratus in it.

There's not a lot of floorspace no matter how you orient this tank. Personally, I wouldn't put anything more than a pair of P. vittatus in it. (Even a pair might be stretching it)
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Old 06-06-2020, 12:06 AM
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I was planning the latter, yes.

Thank you! I want to do the absolute best I can for the frogs. I was also really hoping to be able to repurpose this aquarium, but I won't if it isn't appropriate. Since P. Vittatus are social (it seems?), it doesn't seem appropriate to keep one singly. Whenever I get to actually moving forward, it sounds like I'll have to consider a larger enclosure.

That said, I will also point out that the care sheet on this forum indicates a 10 gallon is appropriate for a trio of P. Vittatus, and the standard 10 gallon is 20" x 10" x 12", giving 200 square inches without subtraction for background space. That seemed small even to me, hence my question here. By comparison, my 20 gallon would be 384 sq inches without subtractions for the background. The care sheet says a 20L (which I assume to mean 20 gallon long, not 20 liters) is appropriate for 5 P. Vittatus, and the square inchage of that would be less than my rotated 20H, at 360 (20L are 30"x12"x12"). So I'm glad I asked, though it sounds like the care sheets may need updating then?
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Old 06-06-2020, 12:13 AM
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Default Re: 20H horizontal & space

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I was planning the latter, yes.

Thank you! I want to do the absolute best I can for the frogs. I was also really hoping to be able to repurpose this aquarium, but I won't if it isn't appropriate. Since P. Vittatus are social (it seems?), it doesn't seem appropriate to keep one singly. Whenever I get to actually moving forward, it sounds like I'll have to consider a larger enclosure.

That said, I will also point out that the care sheet on this forum indicates a 10 gallon is appropriate for a trio of P. Vittatus, and the standard 10 gallon is 20" x 10" x 12", giving 200 square inches without subtraction for background space. That seemed small even to me, hence my question here. By comparison, my 20 gallon would be 384 sq inches without subtractions for the background. The care sheet says a 20L (which I assume to mean 20 gallon long, not 20 liters) is appropriate for 5 P. Vittatus, and the square inchage of that would be less than my rotated 20H, at 360 (20L are 30"x12"x12"). So I'm glad I asked, though it sounds like the care sheets may need updating then?
Sooo yeah after doing a lot of reading I have found absolutely no consistency anywhere regarding how much space a frog 'needs' or 'should' have. From everything I have read your plan will do fine for 2 frogs. How many more could go in there? /shrug matter of opinion. There are definitely people that provide their frogs with more space and there are folks that provide their frogs with less space. Heck there is a guy on facebook that has a literal greenhouse for his frogs. This doesn't mean you should change your plan one way or another, it's just the reality of the hobby. However if you read enough and start taking averages what you will find is that generally speaking folks are recommending 150 square inches per terrestrial frog as a minimum.
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Old 06-06-2020, 12:28 AM
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Default Re: 20H horizontal & space

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Thank you! I want to do the absolute best I can for the frogs. I was also really hoping to be able to repurpose this aquarium, but I won't if it isn't appropriate. Since P. Vittatus are social (it seems?), it doesn't seem appropriate to keep one singly. Whenever I get to actually moving forward, it sounds like I'll have to consider a larger enclosure.

That said, I will also point out that the care sheet on this forum indicates a 10 gallon is appropriate for a trio of P. Vittatus
Yes, the care sheets are outdated in a lot of ways. Keepers' understanding of best practices evolves.

The best way to get a feel for how people are keeping a certain species is to use the search bar on the top of the page and enter the species name, then start reading. You'll get a feel for how practices have changed over years, too.

I don't know that any darts are social. Some tolerate living in groups in captivity better than others, but that is not at all the same as 'social'.

I'd recommend you do some research into the pros and cons of using a fish tank vs a purpose-designed vivarium such as an ExoTerra. I would not use a fish tank for long term care of most terrestrial animals, but I have a low tolerance for frustration.
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Old 06-06-2020, 01:39 AM
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Having maintained forums in the past myself, I would assume it should be fairly straightforward for a moderator to update the care sheets. If the hobby has changed significantly in the 14 years since it was first posted, that is an easy way for the accumulated knowledge here to be easily transmitted to those just beginning to research the hobby, especially as the care sheets are referenced throughout the forum as a starting place.

While I haven't used the search option (because in general they're pretty unwieldy on forums, so I tend to shy away from them), I did read through the entire phyllobates subforum prior to posting, and hadn't seen any discussion of the issue, heh. Hopefully this isn't coming off as ungrateful or grumpy! I just know this forum is widely regarded as one of the best places to go for information, and many people will believe reading care sheets here is a good enough starting place, so if suggestions have changed (which is totally understandable!), updating the "starting points" for new folks would be a good choice.

Anyway, thank you for the information! It was the care sheets that also list P. Vittatus as social, as well as other descriptions I've read, but if they are okay to house singularly, that's good to know!

Seriously, thanks for the feedback! I will probably return to lurking as I research more and then pop back later with additional questions, heh. Thank you!

ETA: I've done a fair bit of research into converting aquariums and I'm fairly handy, so I believe I can make it tolerable for myself. Plus, I honestly would hate to buy another glass enclosure when I have an aquarium sitting empty, especially with the growing sand shortage.

Last edited by notsoencrypted; 06-06-2020 at 01:46 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 06-06-2020, 02:09 AM
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Default Re: 20H horizontal & space

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Seriously, thanks for the feedback! I will probably return to lurking as I research more and then pop back later with additional questions, heh. Thank you!
THIS! the best approach, read and then ask questions :-)
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Old 06-06-2020, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notsoencrypted View Post

Seriously, thanks for the feedback! I will probably return to lurking as I research more and then pop back later with additional questions, heh. Thank you!
THIS! the best approach, read and then ask questions :-)
Already what I've been doing, haha. Like I said, I just wasn't finding similar answers anywhere, hence asking haha. Wanted to know before digging into more stuff! Thank you!
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Old 06-06-2020, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: 20H horizontal & space

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Having maintained forums in the past myself, I would assume it should be fairly straightforward for a moderator to update the care sheets. If the hobby has changed significantly in the 14 years since it was first posted, that is an easy way for the accumulated knowledge here to be easily transmitted to those just beginning to research the hobby, especially as the care sheets are referenced throughout the forum as a starting place.

While I haven't used the search option (because in general they're pretty unwieldy on forums, so I tend to shy away from them), I did read through the entire phyllobates subforum prior to posting, and hadn't seen any discussion of the issue, heh. Hopefully this isn't coming off as ungrateful or grumpy! I just know this forum is widely regarded as one of the best places to go for information, and many people will believe reading care sheets here is a good enough starting place, so if suggestions have changed (which is totally understandable!), updating the "starting points" for new folks would be a good choice.
My understanding of forums is that in general users generate content, and moderators enforce the rules. If you want to put in the labor to write up new care sheets (which wouldn't be simple, since there are serious taxonomy and morph updates to be made, as well), PMing the mods would be a good start to the process.

That comes off as snarky, but -- and again not to ignore the fact that the care sheets need some work -- your expectations might fall farther to one end of the 'spoon feeding <----> do your own research' spectrum than most of us here subscribe to. Yes, again, the care sheets are dated (in both senses: they contain information that has been superseded, and they each have a date stamp on them) but like you mention they are a starting place.

Also: many excellent keepers will have recommendations that deviate from that on care sheets, sometimes to a great degree. There is a wide gulf between 'minimum care' and 'ideal care', and very few keepers here will recommend anything that "probably will work". This is not a 'lowest common denominator' sort of crowd.

If the search function here doesn't agree with you (I think it works well, especially the advanced search), you can enter "(search term) site:www.dendroboard.com" into your favorite internet search engine (yes, I'm sure you know this already ). The archives here are the accumulated knowledge of decades, of people who aren't even here any more, and to neglect them is to ignore 95% of the knowledge here.

On "social" -- there are a few different definitions. As in bees, animals that function as a group unit rather than individuals ("eusociality"). As in humans, animals that gain benefit from interacting with conspecifics. As in sheep, animals that live in groups for the purposes of predator avoidance, and/or that experience distress when separated from that group. As in e.g. big cats except for lions, animals (many animals fall into this category) that are typically solitary but care for offspring ("subsociality").

I think darts would best be considered subsocial. I think in the care sheet the term was used very informally simply to mean 'not particularly violently territorial'. I don't think there are any darts (or any amphibians, for that matter) that experience distress when separated from conspecifics (though I'd be interested to hear about any that do).
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Old 06-06-2020, 04:37 PM
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I would appreciate not being jumped on for asking questions, as well as assumptions about how much of the forum I have or haven't read. As I've indicated, I've read a significant amount of the forums already, especially as concerns what I asked my question about. Just because I prefer to read through the archives in a different way than searching does not mean I have not delved into them.

I asked a basic question and indicated the different answers I was finding, then pointed out the variance in answers even here as part of the reason for my confusion and thus along the question in the first place.

Yes, the care sheets are a starting point, but again, they indicate that they can be updated. I'm only a newbie, so I'm pretty sure no one would accept my suggestions on updating them, nor would I claim enough knowledge to take on that task. I'm simply stating that if accepted wisdom has changed that significantly, they should be updated. People should do more research, for sure, but most people are not going to dig into the forums for additional information on basic care after reading the care sheets here--they will assume that they are a representation of the suggestions they would receive on the forum and searching would bring redundant information, especially as those asking basic questions are directed to the care sheets.

There seems to be a disdain towards newbies here, even those of us who are working hard to be well informed before getting started in the hobby. The condescending attitudes I've seen are not going to encourage people to make use of the resources available here, and that's really disappointing, because the discussions and information is extremely valuable. I've been respectful so far but did not get the same benefit of the doubt, which is very off-putting.

I understand that many people come and ask basic questions and leave, which can be exhausting, but is also how hobby boards work. I simply made a suggestion on how the forum could be made more newbie friendly and got chewed out for it. So, my apologies for making a suggestion that might help out those new to the hobby. I know there is tons of knowledge here, which is why I made the suggestion in the first place--accurate information available on the first contact locations will encourage continued interaction.

Excuse me for daring to suggest anything, especially in regards to the basic information that is what newbies trying to educate themselves will seek out first.
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Old 06-06-2020, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: 20H horizontal & space

Relax.

No one chewed you out.

Relax.

No one jumped on you.

Relax.

We're glad you're here. We want to help.



QUOTE=notsoencrypted;3095912]I would appreciate not being jumped on for asking questions, as well as assumptions about how much of the forum I have or haven't read. As I've indicated, I've read a significant amount of the forums already, especially as concerns what I asked my question about. Just because I prefer to read through the archives in a different way than searching does not mean I have not delved into them.

I asked a basic question and indicated the different answers I was finding, then pointed out the variance in answers even here as part of the reason for my confusion and thus along the question in the first place.

Yes, the care sheets are a starting point, but again, they indicate that they can be updated. I'm only a newbie, so I'm pretty sure no one would accept my suggestions on updating them, nor would I claim enough knowledge to take on that task. I'm simply stating that if accepted wisdom has changed that significantly, they should be updated. People should do more research, for sure, but most people are not going to dig into the forums for additional information on basic care after reading the care sheets here--they will assume that they are a representation of the suggestions they would receive on the forum and searching would bring redundant information, especially as those asking basic questions are directed to the care sheets.

There seems to be a disdain towards newbies here, even those of us who are working hard to be well informed before getting started in the hobby. The condescending attitudes I've seen are not going to encourage people to make use of the resources available here, and that's really disappointing, because the discussions and information is extremely valuable. I've been respectful so far but did not get the same benefit of the doubt, which is very off-putting.

I understand that many people come and ask basic questions and leave, which can be exhausting, but is also how hobby boards work. I simply made a suggestion on how the forum could be made more newbie friendly and got chewed out for it. So, my apologies for making a suggestion that might help out those new to the hobby. I know there is tons of knowledge here, which is why I made the suggestion in the first place--accurate information available on the first contact locations will encourage continued interaction.

Excuse me for daring to suggest anything, especially in regards to the basic information that is what newbies trying to educate themselves will seek out first.[/QUOTE]
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Old 06-06-2020, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: 20H horizontal & space

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I would appreciate not being jumped on for asking questions, as well as assumptions about how much of the forum I have or haven't read. As I've indicated, I've read a significant amount of the forums already, especially as concerns what I asked my question about. Just because I prefer to read through the archives in a different way than searching does not mean I have not delved into them.

I asked a basic question and indicated the different answers I was finding, then pointed out the variance in answers even here as part of the reason for my confusion and thus along the question in the first place.

Yes, the care sheets are a starting point, but again, they indicate that they can be updated. I'm only a newbie, so I'm pretty sure no one would accept my suggestions on updating them, nor would I claim enough knowledge to take on that task. I'm simply stating that if accepted wisdom has changed that significantly, they should be updated. People should do more research, for sure, but most people are not going to dig into the forums for additional information on basic care after reading the care sheets here--they will assume that they are a representation of the suggestions they would receive on the forum and searching would bring redundant information, especially as those asking basic questions are directed to the care sheets.

There seems to be a disdain towards newbies here, even those of us who are working hard to be well informed before getting started in the hobby. The condescending attitudes I've seen are not going to encourage people to make use of the resources available here, and that's really disappointing, because the discussions and information is extremely valuable. I've been respectful so far but did not get the same benefit of the doubt, which is very off-putting.

I understand that many people come and ask basic questions and leave, which can be exhausting, but is also how hobby boards work. I simply made a suggestion on how the forum could be made more newbie friendly and got chewed out for it. So, my apologies for making a suggestion that might help out those new to the hobby. I know there is tons of knowledge here, which is why I made the suggestion in the first place--accurate information available on the first contact locations will encourage continued interaction.

Excuse me for daring to suggest anything, especially in regards to the basic information that is what newbies trying to educate themselves will seek out first.
Personal opinion: no one jumped on you. Had you actually been jumped on, the tone of the posts would have been much different.

No one here said you hadn't done research.

Please point out which specific portions of people's replies you found disrespectful. If I said anything you thought was disrespectful, I sincerely apologize. I don't think anyone was trying to be insulting towards you.

All of us are voluntarily giving up our time to try to help other people, and PARTICULARLY their frogs, to get the information and care they need.
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Old 06-06-2020, 05:26 PM
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The minimal input i have for using your 20L is that if you’re not using the greater dimensions in height, there’s less a range of temperatures.
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Old 06-06-2020, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: 20H horizontal & space

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Originally Posted by notsoencrypted View Post
I would appreciate not being jumped on for asking questions, as well as assumptions about how much of the forum I have or haven't read. As I've indicated, I've read a significant amount of the forums already, especially as concerns what I asked my question about. Just because I prefer to read through the archives in a different way than searching does not mean I have not delved into them.

I asked a basic question and indicated the different answers I was finding, then pointed out the variance in answers even here as part of the reason for my confusion and thus along the question in the first place.

Yes, the care sheets are a starting point, but again, they indicate that they can be updated. I'm only a newbie, so I'm pretty sure no one would accept my suggestions on updating them, nor would I claim enough knowledge to take on that task. I'm simply stating that if accepted wisdom has changed that significantly, they should be updated. People should do more research, for sure, but most people are not going to dig into the forums for additional information on basic care after reading the care sheets here--they will assume that they are a representation of the suggestions they would receive on the forum and searching would bring redundant information, especially as those asking basic questions are directed to the care sheets.

There seems to be a disdain towards newbies here, even those of us who are working hard to be well informed before getting started in the hobby. The condescending attitudes I've seen are not going to encourage people to make use of the resources available here, and that's really disappointing, because the discussions and information is extremely valuable. I've been respectful so far but did not get the same benefit of the doubt, which is very off-putting.

I understand that many people come and ask basic questions and leave, which can be exhausting, but is also how hobby boards work. I simply made a suggestion on how the forum could be made more newbie friendly and got chewed out for it. So, my apologies for making a suggestion that might help out those new to the hobby. I know there is tons of knowledge here, which is why I made the suggestion in the first place--accurate information available on the first contact locations will encourage continued interaction.

Excuse me for daring to suggest anything, especially in regards to the basic information that is what newbies trying to educate themselves will seek out first.
I too have felt hesitant to ask questions here, but honestly if we don't ask then how will we know, right?

You may have felt attacked because there was a lot of opinions and suggestions made to you. I also agree that yes the care sheets are outdated, BUT what is great IMO about that is you can see how it evolved from past husbandry to what it has evolved into now. Nothing is done without research. As for those who are new to the hobby, they should do research and LOADS of it before actually deciding if PDFs are for them. It is not like getting a puppy at all! I think of it like doing those ecosystems that I (we) had to do in school, I have 4 boys and they all had to do them, it required a lot of research for each one.

I have been following this post because I am also interested in phyllobates, albeit I am working on a much bigger tank all the info is till valuable.

My $.02 is take every suggestion and research that individually. Every care sheet is not done so that we all follow it to the letter. It is not words set in stone. It is for those of us who are clueless. It is a stepping stone with valuable information that leads us to research and discover different methods. It is helpful to see the "what they all have in common" information. That is where I start, ok they all told me I need leaf litter. Not just a few leaves thrown in the tank, but a healthy layer, as for phyllobates, in my research is a debatable subject. So I start at the farthest date and read until the most recent date and make an informed decision.

Asking questions is another valuable option, but I urge you not to feel attacked or jumped on. Take their suggestions and experience and make that your starting point.

When I read your original post about taking your 20H and turning it horizontal for a trio of P.vittatus, I will admit I was a bit wide eyed. They are big frogs, well compared to most other darts. I was thinking a trio for my 100gal, but I was questioning that. Now I am debating on if another species would work better with the hardscape I am working on. I don't know how many is acceptable, but I know I want my frogs happy and well cared for. I think you are taking the right step in asking, and remember your post can be valuable to many others. I am glad that you are here and asking questions because that is how we all learn. The only question that is a dumb one, is the one not asked. A closed mouth doesn't get fed, that goes for knowledge and clarity too

One last thing then I will shut up, sometimes some of these members come off as rude to beginners, but I don't believe that is their intent. It's talking about what has now become 2nd nature to them so they give out suggestions and opinions, that sometimes comes with no detailed information because they have been doing it for so long they forget what it's like to be a newbie who start with zero knowledge. So next time, quote their comments, say hey i found that rude or maybe i am not understanding can you explain more.

Best of luck and I hope this doesn't run you off, this board is great and full of knowledgeable folks. We just have to remember we all are at different levels of learning even the "pros" are still learning!
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Old 06-14-2020, 08:49 PM
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Something can only be a starting point if it is accurate. If something being left up as a care sheet by a common resource is inaccurate, then it isn't a starting point for research, but instead an inaccuracy that will mislead newbies. I'm not saying it needs to be a perfect, absolute, set-in-stone thing. A starting point is what I think it should be--it's just going to be confusing if no one accepts the starting point information as accurate anymore.

I wasn't trying to instigate anything. As I stated in my first post, I was getting varying answers from all over, and as there was a rather incredulous response to my possible goals, I indicated a forum resource as the reason I had planned the way I did. I kindly suggested updating it would be a good idea to help others to avoid my predicament, especially because this forum is such a respected resource.

I then got shouted down for daring to suggest that an outdated resource be updated and told my feelings are invalid. I will continue to use this resource, and continue to post because I hope to see the reviews of vendors that are post-count gated, but I don't feel particularly welcome and I don't think this sort of response will help encourage newbies to make use of this resource. I certainly don't feel attacked because people made suggestions for my tank; that's what I came here for and was thankful for that.

Anyway, I apologize for posting on this again, but apparently I was not communicating clearly and I did have to take a break after the response I received for merely making a suggestion. Hopefully I explained a bit more clearly now.

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