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Old 12-02-2019, 03:18 AM
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Default Paludarium suggestions

Today I got a 36x18x18 tank as an early Christmas present. For several years o have wanted to make a paludarium setup but I don’t know what to put in it. I’ve been lurking in this forum for a while and there’s a great community for non PDF animals. I know for sure I want fire bellies but I want to make it a community tank. My pet store hasn’t had any problems keeping fire bellied toads with anoles and long tails but I’m not sure if I really want them. Also I need suggestions for some aquatic fish and inverts. Another thing I plan to do is make something to put on the top to make it taller. Thanks for any suggestion and feedback!
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:35 AM
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Default Re: Paludarium suggestions

Palud. wont really work for darts as they cant swim. I would look more into a Vivarium.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: Paludarium suggestions

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Originally Posted by Korie08 View Post
Today I got a 36x18x18 tank as an early Christmas present. For several years o have wanted to make a paludarium setup but I donít know what to put in it. Iíve been lurking in this forum for a while and thereís a great community for non PDF animals. I know for sure I want fire bellies but I want to make it a community tank. My pet store hasnít had any problems keeping fire bellied toads with anoles and long tails but Iím not sure if I really want them. Also I need suggestions for some aquatic fish and inverts. Another thing I plan to do is make something to put on the top to make it taller. Thanks for any suggestion and feedback!
One thing to consider is that fire bellies release a toxin that can be irritating to other amphibians so I would not go that route. I would think that you would want something that occupies the top levels of the tank if you do chose to have another terrestrial animal. That being said with only 18" of height that isn't a whole lot of space. Personally if I were you I'd just stick with the fire bellies alone in the tank. With trying to extend the height I would think you'd be better off just getting one of the taller sized tanks. As far as fish and inverts If the tank is an exoterra or the like (you didn't mention) they do not leave you with that much water volume so I would go with nano fish or just ornamental shrimp. I'll tell anyone who will listen to go for Killifish.
 
 
Old 12-02-2019, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Paludarium suggestions

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Originally Posted by Korie08 View Post
Today I got a 36x18x18 tank as an early Christmas present. For several years o have wanted to make a paludarium setup but I donít know what to put in it. Iíve been lurking in this forum for a while and thereís a great community for non PDF animals. I know for sure I want fire bellies but I want to make it a community tank. My pet store hasnít had any problems keeping fire bellied toads with anoles and long tails but Iím not sure if I really want them. Also I need suggestions for some aquatic fish and inverts. Another thing I plan to do is make something to put on the top to make it taller. Thanks for any suggestion and feedback!
One thing to consider is that fire bellies release a toxin that can be irritating to other amphibians so I would not go that route. I would think that you would want something that occupies the top levels of the tank if you do chose to have another terrestrial animal. That being said with only 18" of height that isn't a whole lot of space. Personally if I were you I'd just stick with the fire bellies alone in the tank. With trying to extend the height I would think you'd be better off just getting one of the taller sized tanks. As far as fish and inverts If the tank is an exoterra or the like (you didn't mention) they do not leave you with that much water volume so I would go with nano fish or just ornamental shrimp. I'll tell anyone who will listen to go for Killifish.
 
Old 12-02-2019, 10:59 PM
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Default Re: Paludarium suggestions

There is a whole lot to be said on this subject; for most of it, I'll let you use the search function here: try "mixing" and then if your eyes still work try "paludarium".

I will say this: keeping wild caught herps (those toads and lizards are 98% likely to be WC) is not a good idea for casual keepers, regardless of the opinion of someone who makes their money by convincing you otherwise. If you do, at the absolute bare minimum quarantine separately for a few months beforehand and get a fecal sample to an exotics vet. (You can find an exotics vet here: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661)

There are many, many more species that are good captives that are captive bred. I won't recommend any, because you need to be captivated by an animal independently of your simple desire to keep living things in a box. If you don't have any animals in mind that you have a strong interest in keeping, then i think you should just leave them to their own business. An enclosure full of non-animal living things could be very, very rewarding and virtually none of those plants would have been taken from the wild.
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Old 12-05-2019, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Korie08 View Post
Today I got a 36x18x18 tank as an early Christmas present. For several years o have wanted to make a paludarium setup but I don’t know what to put in it. I’ve been lurking in this forum for a while and there’s a great community for non PDF animals. I know for sure I want fire bellies but I want to make it a community tank. My pet store hasn’t had any problems keeping fire bellied toads with anoles and long tails but I’m not sure if I really want them. Also I need suggestions for some aquatic fish and inverts. Another thing I plan to do is make something to put on the top to make it taller. Thanks for any suggestion and feedback!
One thing to consider is that fire bellies release a toxin that can be irritating to other amphibians so I would not go that route. I would think that you would want something that occupies the top levels of the tank if you do chose to have another terrestrial animal. That being said with only 18" of height that isn't a whole lot of space. Personally if I were you I'd just stick with the fire bellies alone in the tank. With trying to extend the height I would think you'd be better off just getting one of the taller sized tanks. As far as fish and inverts If the tank is an exoterra or the like (you didn't mention) they do not leave you with that much water volume so I would go with nano fish or just ornamental shrimp. I'll tell anyone who will listen to go for Killifish.
I’m not sure if this is the right way to reply but I’m going with it anyway. The tank and actually a Thrive. I’ve never heard of that brand until a few days before I got the tank but it’s a top opening one. I know they’re toxic to other animals but the pet store would buy them from is already keeping them with long tails and anoles so I figured those animals would be used to it already. I’ve definitely thought about shrimp but I never looked into killifish. I’ll have to do a little research into those guys
 
Old 12-06-2019, 01:04 AM
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I highly recommend Epipedobates Anthonyi dart frogs. They are native to south america and their natural habitat is along slow moving streams and ponds. I have a colony of 6 in my 75 gallon palidarium and they are thriving. I keep about 4 inches of water in the base. Their life cycle requires water for the tadpoles to develop into frongs and its lovely to watch! The adults do not swim but they hang out by the waters edge constantly. If youre willing to wait a couple months for the tadpoles I have to develop Id be happy to send you some!
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: Paludarium suggestions

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their natural habitat is along slow moving streams and ponds.
I like the reasoning behind this suggestion.
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:09 PM
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[QUOTE=Hydra1023;3078470]I highly recommend Epipedobates Anthonyi dart frogs. They are native to south america and their natural habitat is along slow moving streams and ponds. I have a colony of 6 in my 75 gallon palidarium and they are thriving. I keep about 4 inches of water in the base. Their life cycle requires water for the tadpoles to develop into frongs and its lovely to watch! The adults do not swim but they hang out by the waters edge constantly. If youre willing to wait a couple months for the tadpoles I have to develop Id be happy to send you some![/QUOTE

Ooh I might be interested in that. I think I might still go with fire bellied for now just because that’s what I’ve been planning and I’d like to have a little bit more prominent of a water feature though.
 
Old 12-06-2019, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: Paludarium suggestions

You've learned, I'm sure, that FBTs eat small fish and shrimp.

Unfortunately, trying to figure out what livestock to put in a specific viv is infinitely more difficult than choosing an animal to keep and then planning a viv around that animal. FBTs sound pretty cool, but building an appropriate viv just for them, and then another for the anoles, and then an aquarium for the fish, is going to give a much better chance of success (i.e. animals living well, for a long time) than trying to shoehorn them into some aesthetically pleasing "display". And success is the goal, I think.

Two vivs (ignoring the aquarium for a moment) aren't any more difficult to maintain than one. They can even share a light fixture (run a long fixture over the top of both), a MistKing (if you decide to use one), but they don't have to share stress and pathogens and toxins.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:03 PM
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Yah I gotta second the opinion on keeping fire bellied toads by themselves. Some years ago when I was an inexperienced "paludarist" I kept FBT's with Paradise Fish, regular and black. Actually the Paradise Fish were in there first. And doing quite well with the males of both species displaying all the time to the females and each other. I decided to add 1 male and 2 female FBT's. Within a week all the Paradise Fish went belly up. There was about 15 gallons of water in there and I did a 50% water change weekly. Im not saying it cant work but maybe if its in the magnitude of an enclosure that's 100 gallons or more, with 30 gallons or so of water, changed twice a week ? Honestly I haven't owned FBT'S since then and sold them once I made the mistake of rubbing my nose after handling them one time. Not very pleasant.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:27 PM
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There’s some fish in the tank with them at the store. They’re kept in an exoterra paludarium so there is only like 10 gallons. I’m not sure what else I would want to keep on it if I didn’t do fire bellied though
 
Old 12-06-2019, 08:35 PM
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What kind of newts or toads might work in a setup this size instead of PDFs
 
Old 12-06-2019, 08:36 PM
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And instead of FBTs
 
Old 12-06-2019, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: Paludarium suggestions

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Iím not sure what else I would want to keep on it if I didnít do fire bellied though
You should keep what you want. That's a nice sized viv for fire bellied toads. It is the mixing them with other species that isn't appropriate, since it isn't good for any of the animals. After you read all the 'mixing' threads here (ahem...) do the same at Frog Forum; I bumped into some good ones directly relevant to FBTs while reading about how bad this idea of cohabbing them is.

I worked in an upper level position at a decent LFS (fish store) for a couple of years. Great experience -- I learned more in a week there than I did in a year of being a hobbyist. We had setups, though, that I wouldn't do again, and regret doing, and would not recommend to anyone. If you take pet store displays as models, you will fail. Pet/fish stores lose a very, very high percentage of animals (no, not a majority, but higher than you think).

A pet store exists to sell things, sell them fast, and make money doing it, and if a display that is bad for the animals serves to sell more animals (like it seems to be doing in your case...), then the store will make up the loss on the markup on the animals it sells to you (and the ones it sells to you to replace the ones you killed). Cynical? Maybe, but I've seen it, and it is true.

Hobbyists should do none of those things; our goal is to keep animals that makes us happy, keep the animals healthy, and keep them safe and comfortable for as long as we can.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Korie08 View Post
I’m not sure what else I would want to keep on it if I didn’t do fire bellied though
You should keep what you want. That's a nice sized viv for fire bellied toads. It is the mixing them with other species that isn't appropriate, since it isn't good for any of the animals. After you read all the 'mixing' threads here (ahem...) do the same at Frog Forum; I bumped into some good ones directly relevant to FBTs while reading about how bad this idea of cohabbing them is.

I worked in an upper level position at a decent LFS (fish store) for a couple of years. Great experience -- I learned more in a week there than I did in a year of being a hobbyist. We had setups, though, that I wouldn't do again, and regret doing, and would not recommend to anyone. If you take pet store displays as models, you will fail. Pet/fish stores lose a very, very high percentage of animals (no, not a majority, but higher than you think).

A pet store exists to sell things, sell them fast, and make money doing it, and if a display that is bad for the animals serves to sell more animals (like it seems to be doing in your case...), then the store will make up the loss on the markup on the animals it sells to you (and the ones it sells to you to replace the ones you killed). Cynical? Maybe, but I've seen it, and it is true.

Hobbyists should do none of those things; our goal is to keep animals that makes us happy, keep the animals healthy, and keep them safe and comfortable for as long as we can.
This makes a lot of sense. But also there’s the problem of wanting to keep fish in there too but I don’t want them to die because of the toxins
 
Old 12-06-2019, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: Paludarium suggestions

36X18X18 is actually not a very big enclosure.

I would not fill it will a bunch of different large organisms.

Think about it and do a lot more research and you'll come to the conclusion that less is more.
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:55 PM
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But also thereís the problem of wanting to keep fish in there too but I donít want them to die because of the toxins
Yes, I don't want them to die either (or get eaten). Aquariums are for fish, vivaria are for herps, aviaries are for birds...and so on. Appropriate housing for each kind of animal.
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Old Today, 01:32 PM
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I would just keep the FBT's then. A trio of them is quite entertaining to watch. Voracious feeders on crickets and earthworms also. I just haven't kept them in awhile due to me having an allergic reaction to them. But I get the same reaction from bloodworms if handle them long enough and I still feed my fish bloodworms once a week. FBT's are great and you can design a nicely planted paludarium for them.
 
Old Today, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Paludarium suggestions

Water quality can be an issue in paludariums. Make sure you have a good filtration system set up. I've had the most luck with a single betta in my paludarium. Paludariums are more complex than a single viv or a single aquarium. The key is to treat each part of the paludarium separately. Treat the aquatic feature like an aquarium and the land as a viv and you should be successful. It's not rocket science and can be extremely rewarding. Hands down, every visitor to my frog room spends the longest time in front of the paludarium.
 
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