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Old 10-07-2019, 01:27 PM
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Default Cohabitant Question

I have seen numerous enclosures setup to house darts with an addition of a Mourning Gecko or a small harem. Generally I understand keeping enclosures species only make them run smoother, but is there any key reason to add or not to add Mourning Gecko's?
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Old 10-07-2019, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

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Originally Posted by Tihsho View Post
is there any key reason
No, there is no one central consideration. Here's a key reason to house them separately, though: interspecific cohabitation never benefits the animals relative to housing them alone.

Anyway, do gain substantial experience housing species alone before even considering housing them together. I really can't overstate this. Learning about any species is 95% experience. A fifty word post from some random dude on the internet doesn't even begin to educate you about an animal. Nor does any number of YouTube videos (these are people who eat Tide Pods, remember).

If you think you might like MGs, get a few -- they don't need a large or complex viv.
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:44 AM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

Sooo....you're saying it's ok and possibly good to house them together...























lol

I've been keeping geckos and many other lizards since 1978 and dart frogs since 2004.

Why pack different animals in small glass enclosures? There is no need.
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

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Sooo....you're saying it's ok and possibly good to house them together...
Is this in reply to me? I sure didn't say this.
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:03 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

Just trying for some humor...
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

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Just trying for some humor...
I see that now.
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

I've housed and kept Mourning Geckos over the years, but darts are the new part for me.

I agree that focusing housing needs per animal is easy, but finding a middle ground for both are hard. Figured I'd throw the question out as others have more experience on this than I do.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:11 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

I think people start with a personal spark of a goal, and if its to create a living picture, a chunk of the rainforest, they also picture the diversity of a biome, ala more than one species in the representation.

Then there are those who are more interested in a particular species and want to create a habitat that promotes the epitome of what will support that species needs.

I think there are nuances to well being, and that frogs and newts and geckos, all guys really, have a mental landscape and living in a closed system can either be a tolerable experience or an abundant one.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

The single most limiting factor is that all we (average hobbyists) have is a small room in which to house a relatively small enclosure...AND limited time.

now..

Most zoos have larger budgets, more space and workers paid to clean and feed ect. = ability to successfully house multiple types of animals.
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

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Originally Posted by Tihsho View Post
I've housed and kept Mourning Geckos over the years, but darts are the new part for me.
That's a useful clarification. My advice goes double, then; MGs are bulletproof, darts somewhat less so.

Do learn all about darts and their care, and then decide on a first species that attracts you and is within your keeping abilities. Then set up a nice viv and buy the frogs you've researched and prepared for.
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

wait what's wrong with mourning geckos now? I've had them for some time with a pair of auratus. They are fine, can't say either pays any attention to the other. The geckos eat all the bad bugs the frogs wont, so there's that. I just have to frequently catch and sell the adult geckos, cause they breed like crazy. That can be a pain. But the money from them goes to plants and stuff too so there's that lol.

edit; I have no idea if the geckos will eat frog eggs. tbh I like having them both together more than I would breeding the frogs, hope that's not a sin. The geckos are also mostly arboreal and nocturnal, while the frogs are opposite.

Last edited by CMH80; 10-09-2019 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:29 AM
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Question Re: Cohabitant Question

No one actually said there was anything wrong with mourning geckos. Nor did anyone say there was anything wrong with statements like:

had for some time

They are fine

Cant say either pays any attention

But having active foraging going on from above and beside at night, at close unescapable range might be where prudence might be inserted.

I dont think the frogs would choose a spot like that to hide for the night.

Also I am truly curious as to what the bad bugs are - I am not being snarky Im totally wanting to know!
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Old 10-09-2019, 04:17 AM
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Glad this provided a good discussion!

I'm trying to find the exact invasive species I ran into while I was back home in Hawaii. I want to say they were D. Auratus, but I'm not sure if there was a locale that best fit what I found years ago. Basically, I wanted to take a cut out of the area I found the darts and replicate it in a Viv. The reason Mourning's came up was because they are also another invasive species on the island and I figured they would assist in bug control within the viv making sure there are no feeder escapee's.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:58 AM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

spiders, those flatworm things that eat springtails, the newly hatched ones eat mites (not sure if they mites are really bad they are just wood mites).
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:57 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tihsho View Post
Glad this provided a good discussion!

I'm trying to find the exact invasive species I ran into while I was back home in Hawaii. I want to say they were D. Auratus, but I'm not sure if there was a locale that best fit what I found years ago. Basically, I wanted to take a cut out of the area I found the darts and replicate it in a Viv. The reason Mourning's came up was because they are also another invasive species on the island and I figured they would assist in bug control within the viv making sure there are no feeder escapee's.
This is an interesting idea.

D. auratus 'Hawaiian' is the frog you're looking for; I understand them to be a locale of the 'Green and Black' morph. There are also purported Hawaiian locale mourning geckos in the hobby. I'm skeptical of the actual lineage of some MGs claimed to have lineage, though, and I personally wouldn't pay the (crazy, IMO) upcharge for so-called Hawaiian MGs.

I don't think the bug control reasoning is really a factor; you'll still have just as many escaped FFs, since you'll have to feed more FFs to ensure the frogs get enough in the face of the competition.
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:28 PM
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I've found some local sellers that have MG varieties and they sell them for 30 each or 50 a trio regardless of the locale. I just wanted to make sure they had a home before picking them up at a show.
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

I have a massive exhibit (over 750 Gallons by volume) and I am attempting adolescent Red Eyed Tree Frogs (no more than 3), 2 Mourning Geckos (adolescent), 5 Phyllobates Terriblis (not in the exhibit yet, need to be at least 1 1/2 inches. They are one inch as of today), tropical fish in a 40 gallon water area no more than 7 total, Cory Cats, Black Tetras, Buenos Aires Tetras.
I'll let you know how it goes.

Also, I used to work in zoos and they have many WEIRD cohabitants, the MOST extreme? Fer-De-lances in with Poison Frogs (for years!)

Anyway, I think almost anything is possible with the right enclosure, but I used to build special enclosures for Mixed Species, back in the late 90's/2000 (we are on the road to doing that again).
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:02 AM
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Almost anything is possible including devastating consequences - like the outbreak of amebiasis infecting boids in an exhibit in an iconic and albeit scientifically stewarded museum, where the snakes were displayed with aquatic turtles in the realistic jungle water feature.

More recently in the 2000's, I was in the uncomfortable position of having to "cut off" the director of a smaller yet respectable institution from acquiring yet another pair of collared lizards that were "needed" to occupy a large much too openly constructed and fanned exhibit with kangaroo rats. The rodents thrived but the lizards became ill with respiratory infections.

The goals of institutions presenting mixed situ are to curate a world habitat vision, animals are replaced as needed to preserve the display. Loss of animals is a calculated given - and seen in a cost/benefit modality.

Private hobbyists may not have the space or experience to detect signs of distress or illness. The goal of home displays is one of personal use and entertainment. Zoo and museum mixed displays inspire and teach the public about nature. The impulse to replicate these in much smaller containment at home has built in factors of exacerbation in a closed system.
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Old 10-11-2019, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

An by 'exacerbation', I would also use the more commonly used word: 'Fail"

or 'degrees of fail'
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Old 10-11-2019, 05:16 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

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Loss of animals is a calculated given - and seen in a cost/benefit modality.
This line of thinking unfortunately exists in large parts of the aquarium hobby (freshwater community and planted tanks especially), where relatively fragile WC fish are the norm. When I get a group of cardinal tetras, or marble hatchetfish, or WC plecos, I expect to lose ~10% in quarantine. I have lost entire groups.

I worked at an LFS for a couple years, where the same cost-benefit calculations are applied to incoming fish (including expensive marine fish). Losses though all parts of the chain of custody are considerable, at least as high as what I am led to believe to be the rate of loss of smuggled frogs.

This is one reason that here in the dart frog hobby I try to resist the ways of thinking that come from the aquarium hobby -- especially the "build a pretty viv and then figure out what frogs to put in it and they have to be colorful and I want a group of them and maybe a couple different species and some geckos would be cool in there too" -- is because the dart frog hobby does not, thankfully, seem to accept the notion of tolerable losses.
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Last edited by Socratic Monologue; 10-11-2019 at 05:17 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-11-2019, 10:20 PM
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I agree with a lot of the comments in this thread, with some exceptions.

Nevertheless, I know when Animal Kingdom was built in Florida, Disney tried to hide the news that many of the new animals had died, injured, became ill (I didn't work on this project, but the firm I did worked for AFTER the fact, did). According to the info told to me, Disney caused the death of a ton of different species because of failed husbandry, care, etc. I wish I could give more details, but I admit, this was after the fact and chatter from employees that were present at the time.

By the way, thanks for all these amazing comments, you can really learn a lot from the people here, so much great info!!!
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Old 10-12-2019, 01:32 AM
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Your enclosure sounds glorious R.F.E.

I weigh about a hundred Lbs and it sounds like a place I'd like to spend an afternoon in!
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Unread 10-21-2019, 01:18 PM
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This is solely a hypothetical, but when it comes to large display's (I'm talking zoo size) I'm guessing even at that point cohabitation is still even frowned upon form the hobbyist side?

From the responses people have posted about working on professional large scale displays, it seems like there is too much risk and little reward by setting up an environment with multiple species.
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Unread 10-21-2019, 01:39 PM
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This is solely a hypothetical, but when it comes to large display's (I'm talking zoo size) I'm guessing even at that point cohabitation is still even frowned upon form the hobbyist side?
Though I know what you are trying to say here, "zoo size" isn't really the issue, nor a useful phrase; many/most zoos keep many species in enclosures the size used by you and me (a couple cubic feet at most).

Zoos have: on-staff exotics vets, medical facilities, and diagnostic labs; PhD caretakers; the time and will to know a species backwards and forwards before entering into caretaking; extensive quarantine facilities; immense experience housing animals; huge budgets relative to any hobbyists (I knew someone who was an intern at a famous aquarium in Chicago, who told me that cost was never an issue in their calculations; the institution had funds they simply didn't know what to do with), and so on.

Also, as has been noted above, zoos often shouldn't be cohabitating either. It isn't "from the hobbyist side", it is frowned on "from the animals' side".
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Unread 10-21-2019, 03:02 PM
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Agreed on all counts!

I was just trying to quantify what it would take to make it a possibility. By that I'm talking about say taking a slice out of an environment and placing it all in a large enclosure and there still being a strong chance that the issues we notice in smaller environments still being an issue in larger environments.

That said though, CB species tend to be hardier than those WC and then transferred to an enclosure.
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Unread 10-21-2019, 06:04 PM
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That said though, CB species tend to be hardier than those WC and then transferred to an enclosure.
Not really. Too broad of a statement.
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Unread Yesterday, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: Cohabitant Question

Mourning geckos are probably the easiest, commonly available gecko to mix with dart frogs. But make sure the tank is big with lots of hides and visual obstructions between the areas the animals will primarily hang out in.

If you haven't kept dwarf geckos or dart frogs on their own before don't mix.

There is a lot of mixing that happens in the hobby. It's just not often admitted on this particular forum. A couple points I see against it here I don't always agree with.

1) Only zoos should do it.
-I regularly see far better viv designs posted here and on other groups/forums than what I see in zoos. Many community tank zoo builds are seemingly designed to force the occupants in the enclosure out into the open for all the kids who have to rapidly walk by but want to spot everything.

Zoos/aquariums are also often short staffed. I know I personally will spend hours a day observing my 1 large display tank. Do you think zoos are able to provide that kind of attention to each of their setups?

The behind the scenes I hear about from some zoos/aquariums is not pretty...I'm not so sure we should be putting them on a pedestal. I'm not bashing them all. You can't paint them all with the same brush. But I just don't like the 'zoos only' reasoning.

2) It's of no benefit to the frogs living in the tank to mix other species
-Is keeping frogs in small glass boxes a benefit to them in general?

I'm not saying we should be irresponsible to our animals needs. Anyone who decides to mix needs to do a lot of research. A ton. But I do think this forum does a disservice to the community by yelling at people who want to mix. So many of them are going to mix anyway. Only now they will move on and look to get their info from a far less experienced and far less technical group/forum.
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Unread Yesterday, 06:16 PM
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I disagree with your #2 argument. If all the animals needs are taken care of and it has the necessary environmental parameters then yes its generally beneficial imo. Including other animals into a system that already meets the frogs needs like how i sort of described does not add anything beneficial to the frogs. It is just another mouth to feed and body in the way if you ask me. Not to mention waste.
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Unread Yesterday, 07:35 PM
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Mixing herps in the "hobby" strangely parallels the desire to handle herps.

The deeper you go the less you want to mix them or handle them.

I have worked with children who readily understand things that adults are too stubborn and entitled to consider.
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Hmm. So I take it a parrot's out of the question? #disappointing

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My favorite remark on this thread is : "It is frowned on from the animals side"

Strip away the motives of particulars in zoo or hobby and if the animal itself is considered, most mixing is applying an unnatural constant of stimuli, with small well sighted creatures - in a closed system.

If we are not able to detect chronic predatory vigilance or desensitization, then using rational prudence and our best instincts seems like the right thing to do.

Its simple courtesy to the living, and what a privilege it is to give it. I never cease to be moved by their presence in my life.
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