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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2019, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

I suppose I have not had that much science education but I do enjoy some of it(NOT the scientific method or any of that).

Last edited by Scott; 09-26-2019 at 08:52 PM.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:08 AM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

I am being told on another forum that tree frogs are easier than dart frogs and I should start with those. Is this true?

Last edited by aquanerd; 09-17-2019 at 02:10 AM. Reason: Stuff
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Old 09-17-2019, 03:06 AM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

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Originally Posted by aquanerd13 View Post
I am being told on another forum that tree frogs are easier than dart frogs and I should start with those. Is this true?
Kind of an odd question.

Do you just want any kind of frog? I don't see that one can substitute for the other; I find darts really fascinating, but wouldn't keep a tree frog if you gave me one. Other folks think exactly the opposite.

Back to jgragg's advice: slow down, read lots. After that, do it again. Figure out for yourself which is "easier" (I don't even know what 'easier' means in this context, honestly) by learning all about both. You might come to realize that you actually want a cat; you're bouncing around so much here that it is pretty clear you haven't pinned your aims down even remotely.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2019, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

I would like a pair of dendrobates auratus. I know they are semi-arboreal. I am thinking of the 24x18x18 tank because I know they will like the height, but they need a fair bit ground space also so as a semi-arboreal species, they will appreciate the ground space I think. Is this correct? I know the males call from the top of the tank during the breeding time so they use height just not as much as they use ground space. I have read that they sleep at some elevation to but they eat on the ground usually.
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Old 09-17-2019, 10:01 PM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

I don't keep auratus, but that all sounds reasonable to me.

Although I think you're right about the things you say about viv height and frog behavior, a lot of folks simply like 24" tall vivs for the planting possibilities they offer. After drainage space and substrate you lose ~4 inches or so from the height, too.

That all said, an 18" tall viv would be nice, too. Kind of a personal preference thing. Looking at full viv pics of 18" tall vs 24" tall vivs here might help you to see if what I've said resonates with you or not.
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Old 09-17-2019, 10:10 PM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

I was also thinking of the 24x18x18 because I thought it would be better for plants lol. I forgot that I can have vines and stuff and plants on the backgrounds. I really need to stop thinking of this like an aquarium.
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

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Figure out for yourself which is "easier" (I don't even know what 'easier' means in this context, honestly) by learning all about both. You might come to realize that you actually want a cat; you're bouncing around so much here that it is pretty clear you haven't pinned your aims down even remotely.
This is also good feedback. Another way to look at it is - easier is what you like more. Not "you like it, because it's easy" but the opposite - "it's easy, because you like it". All kinds of things come to mind - dancing, playing music, learning foreign languages, applying mathematics. None of these is especially easy, but if you don't like them, they're hard, or just awful. Whereas if any of them turn out to be something you like - they will come to you relatively easily, and other people will be jealous, thinking you're lucky. But we're all lucky, in our own things. Maybe you're a good dancer (lucky!!!) but suck at math (not lucky!!!), who knows.

I tell you what. Have you ever thought about wild-caught native or introduced anurans? We have treefrogs, semi-terrestrial frogs, aquatic frogs, seriously terrestrial frogs. We've got huge frogs, tiny frogs, and lots and lots of medium-sized frogs.

I mention this, because "sampling" from what you can catch might help you learn what turns your crank. These, you will find easy because they bring you joy. We have many wonderful treefrogs - greys and barkers for example. If you're in Florida, why not a Cuban? Conversely, I find toads utterly charming. We have some great toads too. Finally, take a look at greenhouse frogs. I've never kept them (just used them as snake food, ha ha) but I suspect they would provide a reasonable facsimile for dart keeping.

Your age gives you a virtual free pass from a "fish and game" standpoint. Maybe you need to buy a fishing license - look into it. They are cheap and nowadays usually available online. Probably you don't even need one though, until you're 15 or 16. Just don't keep anything that isn't legal to possess.

Also there are usually prohibitions on releasing captives back into the wild. But honestly, if you are starting with absolutely sterilized caging & decor, and don't have any other pets, keeping a wild-caught toad over the summer and then around when school starts back up letting it go on a rainy night, right where you caught it, is a very low-risk proposition from a biosecuity standpoint. (I'm dead certain I'm now convincing some people here I'm a complete asshole. But, all of us old guys here did this. The rules have changed but I don't think the reality has. It turns out that chytrid has been here quite a while.) Biosecurity is manageable, some things DO need to be banned but other things just need commonsense rules. Like "sterilize, and do not mix". Another approach would be to just keep the animal in captivity for its full lifespan - keep it until it dies. That works even better. It's both biosecure, and legal. That is better.

Anyway - welcome. Thanks for not being overly shy or sensitive. You're young, things seem to take forever. But you're gonna live a long time. There is plenty of time to figure stuff out - don't be in a rush.

Last edited by jgragg; 09-17-2019 at 11:06 PM. Reason: word choice
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2019, 11:12 PM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

What brings me joy so far is my fish. And my chickens, but mostly fish. I like your idea of a wild-caught frog over the summer. I will do that next summer in preparation to the darts. If I enjoyed it and maintenance wasn't so bad, I will get darts. If it kinda sucked and maintenance was not fun, I guess I will stick to fish.
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:14 PM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

I have a fishing license already. Plus I live on 3 acres with a fair bit of frogs. We have a large creek and several smaller streams. Releasing will not be a problem. We see leopard and bull frogs commonly.

Last edited by aquanerd; 09-17-2019 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 09-19-2019, 02:19 AM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

Congrats on your living situation - sounds nice. Leopards and bullfrogs would be harder captives to succeed with than treefrogs or toads (or spadefoots for that matter, if you have them), because of their jumping (and nose-smashing) abilities and overall nervousness. Have you seen or heard treefrogs or toads on the property? You can get audio of frog calls pretty easily these days. It's actually fun - and a bit challenging - to just hear them and be able to ID them. Then it's even more fun - and also sometimes challenging - to walk over to the noise and put eyes on those animals. Some species call most or all of the warm season, others call during very specific times, like only in late winter. All this info is available in good field guides.

What state do you live in? Please, no more detail than what state. Some states (farther south and east) with those 2 species you mentioned have many more anuran taxa, while others (farther north and west) only have a few. Also, some states have good online Herp Atlases. For example, https://www.inherpatlas.org/

Maybe see if yours has one.

Honestly, you might also just get started on a viv. If you really want a frog / fish palu, 1) it will take longer than you think to make it and get it running as you initially intend, and 2) it will take even longer to observe its running and then adjust things to smooth-running perfection. Working out these kinks WELL BEFORE subjecting an animal to your tender ministrations is the humane route.

And maybe you will discover you like seeing herps in the wild more than you like having them in a tank. It's a common feeling - not right or wrong, but some people have it. Honestly, it can be cheaper and take less time (easier) to just go outside to see them - but it can also become a passionate hobby. Some people travel the world just to go see herps. Some people discover an interest in nature photography and develop real talents in it. Some people build frog (or salamander, but I digress!) breeding ponds or otherwise create or improve some aspect of wildlife habitat, right in their backyard. You never know where this interest might take you. Hobby, career, friendships - all possible.

Good luck!
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2019, 01:29 PM
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This is all great feedback. I want to diverge one moment now that we know your age. Please, as soon as possible, let your parents know you are on this forum. Show it to them, and periodically tell them about what you've been discussing and with whom you have beem chatting. I've never seen anything inappropriate on this forum, but it is best to make sure your parents are up to date and there for you in case someone contacts you inappropriately.

Your age is a great and exciting time for this stuff, and it's about the same age I started exploring the internet for darts. Bring your parents along for the journey. I suspect they will enjoy watching you grow and learn as well.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2019, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgragg View Post
Congrats on your living situation - sounds nice. Leopards and bullfrogs would be harder captives to succeed with than treefrogs or toads (or spadefoots for that matter, if you have them), because of their jumping (and nose-smashing) abilities and overall nervousness. Have you seen or heard treefrogs or toads on the property? You can get audio of frog calls pretty easily these days. It's actually fun - and a bit challenging - to just hear them and be able to ID them. Then it's even more fun - and also sometimes challenging - to walk over to the noise and put eyes on those animals. Some species call most or all of the warm season, others call during very specific times, like only in late winter. All this info is available in good field guides.

What state do you live in? Please, no more detail than what state. Some states (farther south and east) with those 2 species you mentioned have many more anuran taxa, while others (farther north and west) only have a few. Also, some states have good online Herp Atlases. For example, https://www.inherpatlas.org/

Maybe see if yours has one.

Honestly, you might also just get started on a viv. If you really want a frog / fish palu, 1) it will take longer than you think to make it and get it running as you initially intend, and 2) it will take even longer to observe its running and then adjust things to smooth-running perfection. Working out these kinks WELL BEFORE subjecting an animal to your tender ministrations is the humane route.

And maybe you will discover you like seeing herps in the wild more than you like having them in a tank. It's a common feeling - not right or wrong, but some people have it. Honestly, it can be cheaper and take less time (easier) to just go outside to see them - but it can also become a passionate hobby. Some people travel the world just to go see herps. Some people discover an interest in nature photography and develop real talents in it. Some people build frog (or salamander, but I digress!) breeding ponds or otherwise create or improve some aspect of wildlife habitat, right in their backyard. You never know where this interest might take you. Hobby, career, friendships - all possible.

Good luck!
I live in Oregon, and we don't have to many amphibians. We have those red-bellied salamanders, the frogs I stated above. I found this and I realized that I once saw a pacific tree frog several years ago. https://gonefroggin.com/2016/09/26/frogs-toads-oregon/


Quote:
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This is all great feedback. I want to diverge one moment now that we know your age. Please, as soon as possible, let your parents know you are on this forum. Show it to them, and periodically tell them about what you've been discussing and with whom you have beem chatting. I've never seen anything inappropriate on this forum, but it is best to make sure your parents are up to date and there for you in case someone contacts you inappropriately.

Your age is a great and exciting time for this stuff, and it's about the same age I started exploring the internet for darts. Bring your parents along for the journey. I suspect they will enjoy watching you grow and learn as well.
They really don't care about my hobbies and learning about them as long as:
1. They don't have to pay any money(for the hobby or for repair bills) and
2. I can keep my pets contained and NOT roaming the house, and
3. I am safe, and
4. It looks nice and doesn't stink.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2019, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

Welcome to the hobby, just to throw my 2 cents out there. I personally researched on here the better part of a year before getting my first darts. That being said care requirements for darts isn't all that demanding and the more simple you keep things the better off you will be starting out. We all start out seeing these awesome set ups and want them but the truth is it's best to keep it simple your first set up, learn the lessons that come with it, then use that experience later down the road to build your dream set up. You're young so take your time you've got plenty of it.

Also one thing to keep in mind with darts vs. other frogs is what you will be feeding them. I personally came to the conclusion many years ago that I did not want anything to do with voluntarily keeping crickets in my home. Not sure fruit flies are much better ha ha. Just something to keep in mind when trying to keep the rents happy.
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Old 09-19-2019, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

Yes I have lot's of time. I am saving my money right now for the dart frog tank which will take a while. As you said, I will keep it simple. In a few years, if I am still loving it and I want to upgrade, I will setup my dream paludarium.
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Old 09-19-2019, 04:51 PM
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Well, the realistic dream paludarium. Or maybe just stick with a huge viv. I have plenty of time to think.
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Old 09-19-2019, 06:40 PM
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Ok. Thank you for your concern. I will do that. I am actually currently unable to access my account page, so I am incapable of reading/sending PMs right now. Thank you again for your concern.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:46 AM
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So I am very confused about lighting. Some say it is good and the frogs need UV rays to bask in, what others say and makes more sense IMO is that because they live on the forest floor, they need very little light. I also have plants to take into consideration. What would be the best bulb? I could just go with low light plants.
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Old 09-20-2019, 11:41 AM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

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Originally Posted by aquanerd13 View Post
So I am very confused about lighting. Some say it is good and the frogs need UV rays to bask in, what others say and makes more sense IMO is that because they live on the forest floor, they need very little light. I also have plants to take into consideration. What would be the best bulb? I could just go with low light plants.
There's a whole section on vivarium construction here, it has hundreds of threads discussing lighting options. Read those.
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:18 PM
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Ok thanks.
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Old 09-20-2019, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

I need some opinions on this planting list:

x1 anthurium 'oaxaca' (I would have this one growing up the back wall)
x1 Calathea lancifolia 'Rattlesnake Plant'
x1 Nephrolepis cordifolia 'Lemon Button Fern'
x2-4 Cryptocoryne wendtii 'green'(as a foreground plant)
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Old 09-20-2019, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by aquanerd13 View Post
I need some opinions on this planting list:

x1 anthurium 'oaxaca' (I would have this one growing up the back wall)
x1 Calathea lancifolia 'Rattlesnake Plant'
x1 Nephrolepis cordifolia 'Lemon Button Fern'
x2-4 Cryptocoryne wendtii 'green'(as a foreground plant)
I don't think Bromeliads would do well with the low light the above plants need, which is a shame because I really like them.

I was also thinking of getting some anubias and/or bucephalandras to put on the driftwood.

Last edited by aquanerd; 09-20-2019 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 09-20-2019, 07:35 PM
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I would rather start off with fewer plants and if I want more, I can always order them. Also, with the plants I suggested, should I not use a hood with lights? I could just put a desk lamp on a timer and place it kind of far from the vivarium? Like the below link and a plant growing bulb?

https://www.amazon.com/TORCHSTAR-Int...s-light&sr=1-2

Last edited by aquanerd; 09-20-2019 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 09-21-2019, 12:51 AM
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I keep Vietnamese Mossy Tree Frogs and they are perfect paludarium amphibians. That being said they require some work. Temps, both water and air, ideally 68F to 75F, water pH below 7.0, I keep mine at 6.4, and keeping live crickets on hand. Good thing is they're avid feeders, even during the day, and I also give them earthworms occasionally. Temps might be really easy for you considering your climate and I would assume if you have well water that it would be soft as I imagine with all the rainfall you guys get it having to percolate down through all that acidic/organic matter (moss, pine needles, leaves) then into non-calcareous bedrock.
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Old 09-21-2019, 06:05 PM
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our water is super weird. Yes, we are on a well, but the gh and kh are both 3 and the ph is 7.6!
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Old 09-23-2019, 11:30 PM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

Quote:
I live in Oregon, and we don't have to many amphibians.
Cool, great state, love the diverse landscapes. However, the amphibian diversity is actually pretty good - especially once you start looking at what families are represented, and not just the species count. Tailed frogs? Sweet! Ha ha.

https://pages.uoregon.edu/titus/herp/checklist.html

However, my impression is that Oregon is one of the stricter states when it comes to field herping, and keeping natives. Please be sure to find out what the laws are there. It might well be that it would be easier to just keep some sort of exotics after all. And for the natives, just have fun learning where they live and how to see them. (Tailed frogs for example are awesome, both as larvae and as adults. Personally I have found the tads to be way easier to locate in small fast cold creeks. Their tail-tips are pale, and are easy to see on the little sucker-mouthed tads hanging onto rocks in the fast clear water. Seeing adults is easiest - not to say always easy! - by walking gravelly sides of small streams at night, in the drizzle. Watch for eyeshine.)

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I'll be more specific. A lot of people on the internet now know they are talking to a 13 year old. Some percentage of those people are pedophiles and will harm you without you realizing it until it's too late. If someone on this or any forum sends you a private message or asks to meet with you, tell your parents immediately.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread. That's the last I'll say about this, but I couldn't in good conscious not try to make this clear. God forbid we find this forum in the headlines for the wrong reason.
Good treatment of an awkward, unpleasant subject that nevertheless cannot be ignored. Well done, thanks.
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Old 09-25-2019, 01:43 AM
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Default Re: Dart frog and fish paludarium.

Hey Aquanerd, check out this video of native frogs calling (make sure the sound is up):
Frog, salamander, turtle and snake photos & videos from 2019 - Field Herp Forum

That's what I mean about some folks really getting into "hunting" frogs, but having it be more like traditional birding. Sometimes with photo/video skills added into the mix. Cool stuff, I think.

Good luck!
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