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Old 07-28-2019, 08:35 PM
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Default Pet store vs shipping opinions

What is your opinion on the better option between having frogs shipped to my house vs purchasing from a questionable local pet store? Shipping is seems like it would be stressful to the frog, but it seems to be common practice. The local pet store has frogs but they look very skinny and the whole shop looks like a hoarders house (not trying to be judgmental.) I’m curious to hear everyone’s opinion on their preferred method of acquiring frogs.
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Old 07-28-2019, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

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Originally Posted by Piper View Post
What is your opinion on the better option between having frogs shipped to my house vs purchasing from a questionable local pet store? Shipping is seems like it would be stressful to the frog, but it seems to be common practice. The local pet store has frogs but they look very skinny and the whole shop looks like a hoarders house (not trying to be judgmental.) I’m curious to hear everyone’s opinion on their preferred method of acquiring frogs.
Online. The pet store frogs are likely not receiving proper care
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

If you frogs that are 'questionable', odds are they will die in your care. The pet store will take the money you gave them, and buy more frogs that will die in their new owners' care. The pet store will then...and so on. And you won't have any frogs anyway, and will want to tear down your viv and bleach it.

Let's not give any money -- for any reason at all, not frogs or dog food or ExoTerras or crickets, and not (dear God!) to 'rescue' an animal -- to questionable pet stores. Enough pet herps die in captivity for unavoidable reasons; questionable pet stores are avoidable 100%. And you should be judgemental, by the way, about the appearance presented by someone who purports to be caring for animals. Those frogs that are going to die from neglect sure don't care if you come off as judgmental.

Shipping is not any more stressful for frogs than riding home from the pet store. Wait, no: shipping by a skillful shipper is less stressful for frogs than riding home with you, since temperature control in a styro box with phase packs is better than a deli cup in a plastic bag in a hot car, and the inside of that box is dark and cozy.

Buy healthy animals from responsible people, or don't buy animals at all. Period.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

if you put a somewhat nearby city in your profile, you will get breeders and reptile show information given to you.

Don't buy from 'pet stores' as a general rule.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

Yea, where are you located? There are plenty of breeders nationally, and a decent percentage of them are either active on this site, or can be contacted by someone on this site.
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Old 07-29-2019, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

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Originally Posted by rmingers View Post
Yea, where are you located? There are plenty of breeders nationally, and a decent percentage of them are either active on this site, or can be contacted by someone on this site.
I'm in Corvallis, Oregon. I should have mentioned in the original post that I was not intending to purchase the frogs (or any other frogs at this time), but I happened to be at the store and the condition of them got me thinking about the shipping vs pet store options.
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Last edited by Piper; 07-29-2019 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 07-29-2019, 12:44 AM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

Go online, I feel like you can find better options compared to a pet store.
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

I like to buy at shows personally. You get a chance t see what you are buying. I buy online as well from reputable breeders
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Old 07-29-2019, 04:19 AM
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Definitely online. Almost all pet stores do not know what they are doing, in my experience. Just check the reviews online before committing. I've never had a bad shipping experience.
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Old 08-02-2019, 12:58 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

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Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
Shipping is not any more stressful for frogs than riding home from the pet store. Wait, no: shipping by a skillful shipper is less stressful for frogs than riding home with you, since temperature control in a styro box with phase packs is better than a deli cup in a plastic bag in a hot car, and the inside of that box is dark and cozy.
SM - can you expand on this please? When buying from a show, if I bring a styrofoam cooler, is that appropriate? Or should I do something different?
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Old 08-02-2019, 01:02 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

As someone who admittedly did buy a rescue frog from a reptile expo recently (hello again, Socratic- the azureus female is still skinny, but I've been accumulating a steady supply of foods and supplements for her) it seems like I've been looking at it backwards, apparently.

I've been operating under the assumption that, while yes, a lot of pet stores are neglectful or outright oblivious, you can at least get a look at the animal and make a judgement call there before purchasing.

I worried that buying online would be a crapshoot- you don't get to see the animal in advance and you can't single out one for questions like diet, general energy levels, etc. You have to just hope that the breeder in question is one of integrity- granted, reputations get around and eventually you almost certainly get a feel for who is trustworthy and who is isn't... Just a bit difficult when you're new to the game.
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

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Originally Posted by BigBlu View Post
You have to just hope that the breeder in question is one of integrity- granted, reputations get around and eventually you almost certainly get a feel for who is trustworthy and who is isn't... Just a bit difficult when you're new to the game.
It has nothing to do with "hope" or "feel". It has to do with research. It isn't any harder to vet a breeder than it is a frog; actually it easier to find a respected breeder than it is a healthy frog, since you don't have to get a fecal sample from a breeder...

Seriously, doing a web search on someone you aim to buy from isn't hard at all, and the folks you really want to avoid have a trail of destruction that is easy to spot. Really, one or two unresolved complaints ought to be enough of a red flag to direct you to shop elsewhere.

Choosing a frog is more challenging anyway. So you go to see this frog in person: what do you look for? You can't see internal parasites. You can't tell lineage by looking at it. Do you know the symptoms of chytrid? Could you recognize a hybrid? Can you tell CB from WC? Looking at the frog in question tells you almost nothing; all it can do is rule out one that is obviously at death's door.
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

More to say, and I need to cut down on late edits:

It isn't even so much that pet stores might be neglectful, it is the fact that even of decent 'general pet stores' or even specialized reptile shops, more than 90% of them simply don't know much at all about dart frogs. This is a very secluded corner of the herp hobby, and I'm glad that it is, because much of the larger herp hobby is pretty much a train wreck.

Also: I'm glad your frogs are doing well for you. That's the important part.
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Old 08-02-2019, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

Here is my 'list' on where to buy Dart Frogs:

#1 - Local frog meet or Frog specific show. Once a year there is 'Frog Day' and while I realize it's only on one coast or the other (exception Chicago) and may be too far, it is hands down the best place to get dart frogs. Several hundred dart frogs right in front of your eyes as well as tree frogs are there along with many of the top breeders. NYC and Mid Atlantic Dendobatid society regularly have meets at hobbyists house or zoos and you can get FREE plants, auctioned plants, trades and frogs.

#2 - 'mail order'. Both the Big names - Josh's, Black Jungle, ext but also FB or Forum hobbyists as well.

#3 - pet stores. I don't ever recommend trying to rescue frogs from Petco ect. They will just buy more and ill treat them. Also the mark up is at least 200%. I just would almost never consider buying from a pet store unless it was a spectacular mom and pop store with breeders or advanced hobbyists involved.
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Old 08-02-2019, 05:39 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

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Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
Here is my 'list' on where to buy Dart Frogs:

#1 - Local frog meet or Frog specific show. Once a year there is 'Frog Day' and while I realize it's only on one coast or the other (exception Chicago) and may be too far, it is hands down the best place to get dart frogs. Several hundred dart frogs right in front of your eyes as well as tree frogs are there along with many of the top breeders. NYC and Mid Atlantic Dendobatid society regularly have meets at hobbyists house or zoos and you can get FREE plants, auctioned plants, trades and frogs.

#2 - 'mail order'. Both the Big names - Josh's, Black Jungle, ext but also FB or Forum hobbyists as well.

#3 - pet stores. I don't ever recommend trying to rescue frogs from Petco ect. They will just buy more and ill treat them. Also the mark up is at least 200%. I just would almost never consider buying from a pet store unless it was a spectacular mom and pop store with breeders or advanced hobbyists involved.
Agreed.
There is a business called Rainforest Poison Dart Frogs and Exotics that sells pdfs online and at expos. I'm not completely sure about how good they are, but at previous shows their frogs have been healthy looking.- this is unrelated, just another company possibly worth looking at.
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Old 08-02-2019, 05:48 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

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Originally Posted by Piper View Post
I'm in Corvallis, Oregon. I should have mentioned in the original post that I was not intending to purchase the frogs (or any other frogs at this time), but I happened to be at the store and the condition of them got me thinking about the shipping vs pet store options.
I'm in Oregon too. If you can( and/or haven't already), checking out the Pacific Northwest Reptile and Exotic Animal Show isn't a bad idea.
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Old 08-02-2019, 07:04 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
It has nothing to do with "hope" or "feel". It has to do with research. It isn't any harder to vet a breeder than it is a frog; actually it easier to find a respected breeder than it is a healthy frog, since you don't have to get a fecal sample from a breeder...

Seriously, doing a web search on someone you aim to buy from isn't hard at all, and the folks you really want to avoid have a trail of destruction that is easy to spot. Really, one or two unresolved complaints ought to be enough of a red flag to direct you to shop elsewhere.

Choosing a frog is more challenging anyway. So you go to see this frog in person: what do you look for? You can't see internal parasites. You can't tell lineage by looking at it. Do you know the symptoms of chytrid? Could you recognize a hybrid? Can you tell CB from WC? Looking at the frog in question tells you almost nothing; all it can do is rule out one that is obviously at death's door.
I would agree with him that it is difficult if you are new to the game. I had a bad experience with a vivarium builder, lots of other people in the hobby knew he was a problem, word was getting around. But believe it or not alot of those people posted no such things on dendroboard. At the time I didnt know about the board of inquiry where I would eventually find lots of posts about this guy. There are lots of things and bits of information that might easily be missed in internet searches that people who have been in the hobby for years or more take for granted. And BTW AFAIK this guy is still operating his business so it's clear that all the negative reviews and information are not easy enough to find to put him out of business.
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Old 08-04-2019, 09:50 PM
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Definitely online but I have best luck going to a convention. You get to meet the breeders and have a better selection. I feel the transportation of the frogs is less stressful than going through the post as well.
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:53 PM
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Unless it is a reputable breeder or clean overstaffed reptile store you should order online. I have ordered online and had no problems but i may have been one of the lucky ones. Seems most online orders are the bees knees though, just do your research where your buying from.
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: Pet store vs shipping opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbilliu View Post
SM - can you expand on this please? When buying from a show, if I bring a styrofoam cooler, is that appropriate? Or should I do something different?
Sorry -- I missed this when it was posted.

A styro box/cooler is the minimum you ought to bring to a show. That's all I do, but I do keep the temp in the car at about 70F, and don't stop for anything other than fuel, and rearrange the car to keep the box out of the sun, and drive straight home, and have the enclosure(s) set up before I leave for the show in the morning. Really, temperature control is the biggest issue, though some folks might have personal issues like cars that always break down or kids who can't understand that deli cups full of frogs aren't toys or an irresistible urge to hit a couple bars on the way home. All that is understandable, but those folks ought to have animals shipped to them.

When you go to the show, buy the frogs then ask the seller to hold them behind the table until you're ready to leave. The frogs don't need to be bounced around while you're walking around.

An extra layer of temp protection can be provided by a handful of phase packs, and research into how to use them. They're cheap, and reusable, but not absolutely necessary.
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