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Old 09-14-2008, 08:11 AM
 
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Default Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

I know a lot of hobbiest bash on other people who want's a mixed tank. The general suggestion I hear is to get many of 1 species, or to get many tanks so you can keep different species separated. But I think they don't understand why some ppl want a mixed tank. First of all, it's not practical for some us to get a BUNCH of different tanks, because we might not have the room, money, etc. Secondly, ppl that want mixed tank usually want to be able to see and keep more then 1 species (w/o having to keep a bunch of different tanks). People that are against it usually say "it's selfish to want a mixed tank because it might cause problems for the frogs". Well isn't keeping 2 frogs in a 10 gal tank also selfish, when their natural range is 100 sq yard? What about people that want those RARE frogs that are super expensive because they are rare, super hard to keep, and can easily die? Isn't that selfish to want that? It's not like it's impossible to have a mixed tank, or it almost always fail. I have heard a lot of success stories if the setting is proper. That is why I am trying to do as much research as I can, and I am in NO rush to get this vivarium started. I am also trying to provide them with as much room as I can afford, and will not overcrowd the tank. I value everyone's opinion hear and in fact, from the responses I've gotten so far, I have changed my planning already. I have lowered the number of species I want to mix, I have lowered the number of frogs I plan to get, and I have tried to get species that can NOT cross breed. I have also ruled out getting recticulatus because I found out they are harder to keep. Trust me, I am going to find out everything I can and do everything I can to make this a successful tank.

Does anyone have some helpful suggestions I can do to make this a successful mixed tank (I'd especially like to hear from people who have successfully mixed tanks). Some very helpful hints I've learned so far are:
1) Quarantee all my frogs to make sure they don't have parasites before I put them in the tank.
2) Introduce the frogs in the tank all at the same time, because when they have established territory already, it disrupts and gives them stress when you introduce a new frog.
3) If you set up your tank with visible barriers between different territories, it helps the frogs establish their own territories and know where it ends.
4) Try to get species that can NOT interbreed with other species. (Does anyone know if Tincs can interbreed with Leucs or Auratus?)
5) Try to get species that are similar size, and eat similar size food.
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Old 09-14-2008, 01:08 PM
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

Can be done. Sounds like you've done your homework b/f asking/jumping in.

"Many success stories" you say...., perhaps but I know of noone personally who does it well....

Tincs/leucs/Auratus do interbreed I believe...although I've never tried it

Get a really large tank, IMO. Look at how zoos/aquariums do it...typically in some x100's of gallon large set ups.

Be prepared to find out that a few combinations dont work because of stress and aggression over territory [not always visible to the keeper until too late]

Good luck.

S
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

ok let me start by stating what nearly everyone on here will say, and please dont take it as hostile as it is not intended to be as such.

if you financial or spatial needs dictate that you can only have one tank then take the suggestions of nearly every person on these forums (who has been in the hobby for more than a year) and don't mix. i agree you have done your homework but just don't do it. if you want a pdf then become a responsible owner and provide your animal with the highest quality of life that you can. mixing species falls in to the category of irresponsible ownership and most definitely shows the lack of consideration as to the quality of life for your animals. you can do what you want and get enjoyment out of mixing species, but at what cost to the animals?

also you are noting that the range of a particular species is much larger in the wild but have forgotten that in almost every instance these frogs wouldn't run into another species EVER (with the exception of auratus as they are widespread) so isn't it selfish to put two different species together, with that reasoning?

and "success" with mixing that you have heard a lot of is likely done in tanks in the 200 gallon+ range. this would it seems be more expensive and larger than setting up 5-10 tanks to individually house species in your case.

also yes there are irresponsible collectors that buy frogs because of their rarity alone, but these folks make up a small portion of the hobby and most responsible hobbyists who own such species have many years of experience and own the frogs to breed so that the offspring may be offered for sale to others alleviating stress on wild populations. not commonly to be released, but if the frog is bred in captivity then the demand for wild specimens goes down. people will get the frogs they want so this a viable alternative to decimating wild populations through export.

perhaps a more reasonable idea is to get a large tank and use dividers (that have been sealed into the enclosure.
10 gallon tank and hood combos are $25 dollars at petsmart. you will undoubtedly be spending more than that on a single frog, so your reasoning behind mixing may not be a justifiable one.

just some food for thought

james

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Old 09-15-2008, 12:50 AM
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

Well here's my thoughts. I think that a lot of people that want a mixed tank are going to do it weather we say to go for it or not. I also believe more people have success with mixed tanks than we hear about because they are afraid to talk about it since it's so shunned.

I agree that mixed tanks aren't ideal, and shouldn't be experimented by with beginners but if they are going to do it, they are going to do it...So maybe we can give some pointers and things to look out for. After all, if we give nothing they are still probably going to mix and the frogs will suffer. So maybe with some guidance we can at least possibly improve the life of their frogs.

With that said, research, research, research (sounds like you're on your way with that). Tincs and auratus and leucs are able to breed together, however a tinc breeding with either one of those is unlikely (not from personal experience, but through research). Also, minimize the numbers of animals more so than if it were a single species tank. You definitely don't want to overcrowd in that situation. A lot of visual barriers and plant cover would be better.

I'm just throwing out some ideas and not guaranteeing anything as far as results. It's up to you with what you do with your frogs, and ultimately you are going to do what you please with them. But please at least consider keeping a single species. At least for a while. You might find it pleasing to keep just one kind. So that's my .02 for what it's worth.
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Old 09-15-2008, 12:59 AM
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nathan23 i just noticed the very long and heated thread about mixing that you started earlier and i apologize for beating a dead horse, if you will, with my last post. i believe that i can assume from the new post that you have made your mind up. even though it has been stated again and again that it is not recommended. since you have a 200 gallon though...heres an idea, i bet your lfs would be happy to trade the tank for a number of smaller ones. craigslist is also a good place to sell large tanks and as i said before $25 for a 10gal and if you are opposed to restricting the frogs to these small enclosures, then petco has an annual $1 a gallon sale. these are just ideas and i am not trying to be arrogant or give the illusion that i am an expert.

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Old 09-15-2008, 01:03 AM
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

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Originally Posted by james67 View Post

also you are noting that the range of a particular species is much larger in the wild but have forgotten that in almost every instance these frogs wouldn't run into another species EVER (with the exception of auratus as they are widespread) so isn't it selfish to put two different species together, with that reasoning?
I think he was trying to say that if everyone is already being selfish with keeping them in small enclosures that it is no different if he himself is being selfish mixing. At least that's how I took it.

Also, if you do go with a mixed tank and you do get some hybrids please DO NOT let them get into the hobby. In fact cull any eggs you would find. Hybrids are known to be weaker, sterile and we as a whole want to keep the bloodlines pure in the hobby because once we cannot get anymore in all we'll have is mixed breeds.
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:32 AM
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Smile Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

what i'm trying to say is that the hobby is already established and has been for a long time. that means that inevitably the frogs will be housed in smaller enclosures than their natural range. this is a fact of keeping exotic animals. the only way to resolve that problem would be to shut down the hobby entirely. which we all know isn't going to happen anytime soon. but making the conscious decision to create an atmosphere that could be more stressful to, lets say a cb frog that has never had a range of 100+sq yds by putting it in a mixed enclosure, is definitely more selfish then the community's choice to keep these animals in captivity in the first place (IMO).

and on a side note i am not taking the holier than thou approach to this topic.and i hope it doesn't seem that way. i will admit openly that when i first got into the hobby, about 9 years ago, i too mixed species. and i'm not trying to excuse myself but there wasn't a source of information like this back then. the only time i really saw an enclosure was at the breeders house and the local aquarium. so i can not easily excuse mistakes of others when there is such a plethora of information that can be easily accessed.

what i am saying is that i have mixed and no longer do it for good reason. nearly all of which were discussed in the previous posts on this topic by not only nathan23 but many many others.

james
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

I agree with what you are saying. I was just saying that is the way he is seeing it (about the selfishness).

I have also done mixed tanks in the past before I got out of pdf's for years. There wasn't as much info around (like you stated), but for me things worked out. I just got lucky I guess with as little info as I knew. I do advise not to mix though.
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:04 AM
 
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

Thanks boogsawaste and james for you input and suggestions. Like I said, I'm pretty open minded and am trying to gather as much information as I can before I make my decision. If I plan to try to mix, I want it to be well thought out to have the best chances for a successful mixed aquarium. I am not that selfish, if I see that the frogs are not doing well I will definately seperate them (or sell them back to the pet store). I won't introduce crossbreeds into the hobby. I definately WON'T overcrowd the tank because that is asking to fail. I have a 200 gal (60"L x 24"W x 31"H) and plan to just put 6-8 frogs at most (hopefully pairs of 3 different species if possible). If you guys read my other thread, I am in NO rush to get this tank started, and most likely will take a year or more to do research and plan it out, etc. I also will definately try to get species that can't interbreed. From what I've learned so far, I have already changed my mind on a few things, such as decreasing the number of frogs and the number of different species (initially I wanted about 10 frogs and 5 different species). Anyways, I just want to gather as much information as I can, so I can make my own decision weither or not it's worth it to try to do. P.S. boogsawaste, you are right about my stance about the "selfish" issue.
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:58 AM
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Smile Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

just a thought... i bet you that your local pet store would be willing to trade that 200gal for 3 20 gal. or possibly even 29 gal. at the very least please consider buying plexi-glass an sectioning the tank into three portions. it is easy to do and you can continue the theme seamlessly throughout. you could also have success breeding in a set up like this and territory would be a less prominent issue. i would still suggest getting fecal tests, and quarantining since the dividers wouldn't inhibit the spread of disease, parasites, etc.

these are just some ideas and i'm not trying to pressure you, just provide alternatives that could satisfy your needs as well as that of the frogs.

james
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Old 09-16-2008, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

Why do people keep mentioning $25 for a 10g tank at petsmart? You really should not be paying more than $12-14 for a 10g tank, you cannot use the accessories anyways. As for the mixing, keep up the research you seem to have thought about the major issues, but you are unlikely to find anyone to back you. Also, if you go with large more voracious species, you probably could think about a smaller species of tree frog to be active at night, I would not forsee a territorial issue.
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:43 PM
 
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

Hi Cindre,

Yeah I thought about incorporating a RETF or a Tiger Leg Monkey Frog. Then there will be both day animals and noctural animals, and tree frogs occupy a different niche in the tank. The only concern is the food size of the RETF. They can eat even large crickets I've been told and those crickets might cause stress to the dart frogs. I guess one way to reduce this is make sure I only feed enough crickets that the RETF will eat, and remove any crickets he doesn't eat. Yes I won't get many support on this issue and the ones that do mix tanks are afraid to speak up in fear of a verbal lashing from the rest.
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

In fact with the feeding issue you can maybe stick the crickets in some kind of bowl they cannot escape while the frog can perch on the side and pick them off. Remove the bowl in the daytime.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:47 PM
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there are no accessories with a tank / hood combo. it is just that a tank and a hood. your right i wouldnt pay more than $10 for a 10 gallon tank. but a hood (when purchased seperately goes for around $25-$35) so if you buy the tank and hood for that much then it works out to be a considerable discount, to those folks who dont have access to wholesale products. or am i to assume you either get irregular deals or do you not suggest a top for a tank?

and after all of the discussion on the topic of mixing (especially in the case of someone who has almost no background in the hobby) i cant understand why people seem to say well you could mix this or that. it's counterproductive. so as i am very tired of commenting on these mixing topics i am finished replying to this post. i hope that through your research nathan23 you will realize that the VAST majority of people strongly oppose mixing and that if you read such information and disreguard it your research will have been for nothing since you failed to look at 90% of the information available to you.

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Old 09-16-2008, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

My views on mixing go with the crowd for the most part. However, I take increasingly large issues with the way it is presented. Example:

Experienced frogger expresses his/her views about mixing, I read that as a novice frogger and I might summarize something he/she says into a more general comment elsewhere. A new frogger reads what I say, and with no background starts pushing a half accurate agenda on EVERYONE, even on more experienced froggers. He may no little or nothing about it other than what he read that I said. This then gets spread as fact and the only acceptable way.

Now, I am not saying this is what is happening in this thread. But I think we need to be careful how we say things. Sometimes should not become always or will. Seldom should not become never. Does that make sense?

I encourage all to take a moderate approach to this heated topic. Have mixed species tanks worked? Absolutely! I also agree there are probably many more out there than we realize because people will not bring it up. Have mixed species tanks killed animals? Absolutely! There are members on this board who have been there and done that. There are also members who have bred two different species in the same tank. So we have to be careful of absolutes, but rather use guding principles.

Now, as relates this particular thread, I have a few thoughts.

If one was to mix, a large tank like this is the way to go. While I feel 5 species is unwise, one terrestrial species and one arboreal species that eat the same food and require the same or very similar care could probably be pulled off with a level of success (however you define that). This would not be without risks, but possibly the least risky approach to a mixed tank. However, a huge area for concern is your lack of experience with these species. How would you know what the signs of stress are if you are not familiar with the species? This should be weighed seriously as it could cost the frogs their lives.

So keep a balanced view and make the best decision you are comfortable living with.

*EDIT* I vended my first reptile show the other week. I sold two Vivariums along with a board member who was selling frogs. Repeatedly we got the mixing question. We discouraged everyoe who asked from doing it and they all readily accepted our opinion as logical and sound, which the reasons we gave are logical and sound. It's on DB that we get a lot of "yeah but...". That's what frustrates keepers like James, and myself.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:10 PM
 
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan23 View Post
Yes I won't get many support on this issue...
Correct.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan23 View Post
...and the ones that do mix tanks are afraid to speak up in fear of a verbal lashing from the rest.
Incorrect.
Since I have read this statement, the vast majority that have experience are somehow beating away those that mix or have mixed from posting their experiences, I'll dispell that myth again. I have posted something similar to this a few times, but I am quite sure it is hard to find amongst the thousands of other mixing threads.

Here is my personal experience with mixing.
The two times I have attempted mixed Dart tanks they both ended in what some may call successful, but what I call far from that. I have mixed ( in well thought out, I think, designed 90's) "arboreal' with ground dwelling (terribilis with intermedius) and they got along just fine. No aggression, no cross infections, no hybridization, no anything, including no breeding. Remember, I have a vet for a brother and both species were tested and quarantined before interaction. They were in-fact the ONLY tank I had running that was not producing one single egg, not one egg. At the time each and every other tank was "successfully" producing good eggs. My second attempt at a mixed dart tank produced the same exact "successes". No aggression in a big old tank but not breeding either. Tincs mixed with thumbs. Nothing good to report other than the fact that they did not kill each other. Before someone jumps up and says that they do not wish to breed, I use the breeding as a yardstick for "health , happiness and success" because in most cases if a group of frogs that normally breed quite well absolutely refuse to breed when mixed, there is something wrong. They can not be "happy and healthy" if not eventually breeding. They may not be stressed to the point of death or notable distress, but who knows what long term effects are being caused? What did I learn? Mixed dendrobates tanks bad. Mixed Dart tanks will never be as "successful" as single dart species tanks. How could they be? And again, I use the benefits to the DARTS , not our own viewing pleasure.


Rich

Last edited by Rich Frye; 09-16-2008 at 11:17 PM. Reason: to remove the "HI Cindre"
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

This illustrates my point about a measuse of success. Thank you for a first hand account Rich.
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Old 09-17-2008, 12:31 AM
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Wink Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

Nathan,

Look at what you've done man...look...[places hands upon Nate's shoulders and gives a vigorous paternal shake, winks]

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beg...ng-sticky.html

S
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:05 AM
 
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

ALRIGHT ALRIGHT! You guys win (waives the white flag). So if I decide not to do a mixed tank, what 1 species of frog would people recommend? It could be a common community frog like the leucs, or a pair of more rare frogs like the pumilio. What frog would be nice in a 200 gal set-up? P.S. You guys are so against mixed tank, are you guys also against people who destroy their frogs eggs, because they don't want to raise froglets? Before you go CRAZY on me, that is not what I intend to do. I want to raise the eggs into froglets, but I heard some ppl destroy their eggs. Is that taboo too?
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:20 AM
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Smile Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

Hallelujah he has seen the light!! and it didnt take 4 pages this time...whoooohooo

Nathan, now your talking!!....we all love to give you "best frog advice" here...no doubt

Personally, I'd go with an Army of tricolors...10-12 of them calling their little heads off...or a pair of nice, big, fat, and bright red Bri Bri pumilio pair...

you could have an endless supply of springtails and isopods in that sized tank alone...would be a masterpiece I bet.

Best!

S
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

Very good point Rich. While I have tried a mixed tank in the past and it could be labled as a "success" I also had no breeding. No fighting, no aggression, frogs were always together eating etc. But obviously something was wrong. I have seen on here that arielelf (probably spelled that wrong) has kept some terribillis with some thumbs and had some breeding. But that's probably not the norm.

In the end nathan, you made the right choice. Now as to frogs: Terribillis, leucs, auratus, galacts, tri colors (si's are nice!) and certain thumbs (sorry, I'm not a thumb guy yet so I can't lead you to what species are best) are some that can be housed in groups.
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Old 09-17-2008, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

You could put nice groups of many frogs in there, I am partial to intermedius. But the tri-colors would be cool too.

As far as egg culling, I don't know that it is taboo. Different people do it for different reasons. I don't think you would be shunned should you do that, but it is not a topic I am overly informed on.
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Old 09-18-2008, 07:10 PM
 
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

I'll go on ahead and run the gauntlet... I kept 4 green and bronze auratus in a 40breeder with 2 leucomelas and a truncatus... it was a semi-temporary thing, about 12 months. No deaths, no skinnies, no issues, there was ALOT of hiding places and objects to break line of site. No hybridization whatsoever...

I've done it before too... Never had an issue. I will go on ahead for the record and say I'm against hybridization and feel that any eggs out of a mixed tank should be culled without question or hesitation, but for a show tank where the primary focus is NOT breeding, but COLORS- I really don't see the big deal unless one sees skinnies or deaths then yeah exercise damage control and separate them all.

Go on ahead and flame me, but I'm no noob. I've kept reptiles and amphibians for 15 years (I'm 22.) I've kept primates, I even had a slow loris (mine as tame, never bit or showed aggression, never licked its elbows, took food from my hand) when I lived in Jakarta, Indonesia... how's that for getting setup to get flamed?? I'd say that's waaaayyy more taboo that D. lehmanni.

EDIT: I just purchased a 1.2 D. truncatus from Sports_Doc and have since moved my other truncatus in with them for a species tank and the auratus have since been sold.
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Old 09-19-2008, 05:29 AM
 
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Default Re: Helpful hints on setting up a mixed tank?

Hi Rotarymagic,

Thanks for your input. I still don't know why it's soooo taboo to talk about mixed tanks. The two main arguements I hear is the crossbreeding issue and it's not good for the frogs in the tank. If it's crossbreeding issue I totally understand, because it can affect the whole hobby to introduce crossbreeds. But, then people should make it a "crossbreeding" issue and not a "mixed tank" issue. Even though I'm new to this hobby, I understand and totally agree that it's not a good idea to crossbreed. Plus there are ways to get around both issues. You can get frogs that can't crossbreed, you can get all the same sex frogs, or you can cull the eggs if they breed.
With the other issue about it's not good for the frogs. There are ways to get around that as well. Having plenty of space, NOT overcrowding the tank, getting frogs that occupy different niche (terrestrial vs arboreal), having plenty of plants and hiding spots so they are less likely to see each other, etc.
Anyhow, I don't get why it's sooo taboo, and people should be able to talk about it openly and can be either pro it or against it, but there should be the freedom of speech, without fear that others will attack you.
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:57 AM
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Its not taboo its just a topic that many people are very passionate about and thus emotions come into play. The key is that it is fine to discuss and even fine to do if someone would chose to, but as you can see it just doesn't work well in most cases. Many times people have a hard time understanding as they think people are just trying to be elitist or push their ideals on others. In reality we are really trying to help them be as successful as possible in this great hobby of ours. People want looks over functionality. Its like buying the Ferrari to take the kids to school. Just not very functional.

I would suggest if you have not purchased a tank yet to start a little smaller and keep it simple for the first tank or couple of tanks. Maybe buy 2 30gal breeder tanks and start with that. They are good size and offer a a good amount of ground space. Then you could start with 2 species and get the best of both worlds. Both of the species and a better chance for success.
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