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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2008, 09:04 PM
 
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Default NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Although quarantine does not only belong in the beginner's section I think this should be posted here.
The first four "my first frog" threads I just read show frogs dropped right into a set-up non-quarantine viv. I am curious as to how many froggers quarantine , how they do a proper quarantine, and if there are still (must be) those out there who either have never heard of proper quarantine or just don't see the up-side to it.
This is quite probably the biggest beginner mistake (although not one limited to newbies) and also quite possibly the biggest cause of pre-mature Dart deaths.
Comments?

Rich
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Old 05-03-2008, 09:26 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

I've never quarantined any of my frogs in the sense that they are placed into a bare enclosure that is easily cleanable, etc. I personally think it's much less stressful to place the frogs straight into the enclosure I have prepared for them.

I have my doubts with the hyper-quarantine methods of a sterile and stark tub/enclosure with wet or damp paper towels as 'substrate' as I think it heightens the risks of bacterial infection, etc. The cons outweight the pros IMO.
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Old 05-03-2008, 09:52 PM
 
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Quote:
Originally Posted by skylsdale
I've never quarantined any of my frogs in the sense that they are placed into a bare enclosure that is easily cleanable, etc. I personally think it's much less stressful to place the frogs straight into the enclosure I have prepared for them.

I have my doubts with the hyper-quarantine methods of a sterile and stark tub/enclosure with wet or damp paper towels as 'substrate' as I think it heightens the risks of bacterial infection, etc. The cons outweight the pros IMO.
Let me start with your "hyper-quarantine" concerns and go from there.
My quarantine containers consist of 1.5 gallon (my froglets go into the same tubs which I have used exclusively for over five years now) round tubs from Josh. I never lose any quarantined frogs (and I quarantine all my new frogs no matter who I get them from) to bacterial infections caused by enclosure issues. My tubs all have a very nice thick layer of leaf litter, many plants , and stress frogs no more than any other container that has ample spots to hide. Chasing a sick frog around a fully planted 90 gal is not a good time for either a sick frog or a chaser. Quarantine is one of the absolutely accepted and practised procedures by Zoos, aquariums, universities, ASN/Treewalkers (which you are a member of Ron) and museums. Using a permanent viv as a quarantine enclosure is not considered proper quarantine. The ASN stance on quarantine is posted under "good threads for beginners" here.
Now to the cons of not quarantining.
Each and every frog that comes into a collection has the possibility of being diseased. Each and every frog can pass along this disease to other frogs in same enclosures and all diseased frogs can pass along said disease to a fully planted viv. Anybody who can look at a frog for a bit and proclaim it "happy and healthy" has an instant job at the psychic hotline because I know of nobody capable by conventional , scientific ways.
So, if your concerns are death by bacterial infection worry no longer. If you are hoping for the best because you buy from"reputable dealers" just understand that each and every sick or diseased frog I have owned (and I have owned a few) have all come from "reputable dealers". If you buy frogs from me, quarantine and run fecals. There is not one breeder out there who can proclaim with certainty that all of their darts are in-fact "happy and healthy".

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Old 05-03-2008, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

While quarantine is important - I have little doubt that there are bigger mistakes made by beginners. Inappropriate temperatures and improper supplementation would get my vote for the 2 biggest mistakes made by beginners.

If a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs, places them into a completed tank and provides appropriate husbandry conditions - the chances are very good that those frogs will live quite content for a significant period of time. Is there a chance the frogs overall longevity is compromised due to the presence of a parasite? Certainly. But is there a chance they will live as long as a pair of frogs that were not quarantined - but housed in the same manner? Yup. (and I agree that there are different ways of measuring success and longevity may not mean success in every ones eyes).

The same can't be said if the frogs are placed in a tank in a room that can experience extremely high temps or be exposed directly to sunlight, or for people who get frogs and feed them without offering calcium. In those cases - you will have a dead frog in less than a years time (and most likely less than 6 months).

I am certainly not advocating that quarantine is without utility, and I fully support and fully practice quarantine. However - if a newbie is going to make a mistake - I would much rather see them not quarantine than not understand and not meet the MINIMAL essential husbandry.
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Old 05-03-2008, 10:08 PM
 
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Quote:
Originally Posted by rozdaboff
While quarantine is important - I have little doubt that there are bigger mistakes made by beginners. Inappropriate temperatures and improper supplementation would get my vote for the 2 biggest mistakes made by beginners.
While usual room temps are similar to dart acceptable temps and it can take months for supp issues to show (time in which supp posts can be read) contaminating a full viv happens almost instantly. But I agree that those are two biggies also.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rozdaboff
If a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs, places them into a completed tank and provides appropriate husbandry conditions - the chances are very good that those frogs will live quite content for a significant period of time. Is there a chance the frogs overall longevity is compromised due to the presence of a parasite? Certainly. But is there a chance they will live as long as a pair of frogs that were not quarantined - but housed in the same manner? Yup. (and I agree that there are different ways of measuring success and longevity may not mean success in every ones eyes).
First off , if a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs and places them into a completed tank they are not providing proper husbandry conditions.
Please don't say that there is a chance that a diseased frog will live as long as a disease free frog. This has been thrown out there before and I know of very few froggers who even have the possibility of having ran a scientific test to prove that diseased frogs live as long as healthy frogs. But I can only guess they do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rozdaboff
I am certainly not advocating that quarantine is without utility, and I fully support and fully practice quarantine. However - if a newbie is going to make a mistake - I would much rather see them not quarantine than not understand and not meet the MINIMAL essential husbandry.
I am glad you support quarantine. But proper quarantine is the essence of proper husbandry, not to be placed in some sub-section of husbandry issues.
Feel free to change the title if this is the only issue.........


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Old 05-03-2008, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Still being new to the hobby I think quarantine is easily overlooked early on, but not one of the biggest mistakes.. My first two frogs went straight into a "permanent" enclosure, and have been their seemingly healthily and happily for over 6 months, looking back it was probably not the best choice but one I made with the little information I had gathered prior to their arrival. I didn't think it was neccesary because the had been housed together prior to my aquisition of them and because I had no other frogs i fear contamination too. However I recently aquired a third frog and plan on moving all three to a larger tank, the 2 originals are in their tank and the new comer is in a sterilite tub with plants, leaf litter and a coco hut, this is her "quarantine" Im having fecals done on all of them before they move in, and the new frog will have been isolated for over a month so I can attest to her appearance of health to back up the results of the fecal(assuming all goes well).

I think quarantine becomes an issue when adding to an existing collection, something most newcomers to the hobby don't have, and hopefully by the time they do they will understand the neccesity and not make the mistake.
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Old 05-03-2008, 10:21 PM
 
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Amanda,
The fact that two ,or any other number frogs, are housed together before you bought them just means that they both are most likely either "clean" or not. If they are/were not "clean" then the time in quarantine before you dirty the viv is the time to test and clean up the frogs.

Rich
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Old 05-03-2008, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Rich,

I realize that now and luckily, and didn't blindly throw everyone into a new tank together I guess that was my point. I started them off in a bare minimuim ten gallon thinking this would be an adequate lifetime home, I kept reading and researching and realized it by no means was. I also realized I probably should have quarantined and tested them, but I didn't and at that point I did realize I should have the tank they were in would have been like you said dirty. I got a bigger tank, and will test them before moving to the new tank, if they turn up dirty there is another sterilite waiting so I can get them into a clean environment for treatment before they move to their new home.

I guess I was just trying to clarify on the thought process of a newb and why they think quarantine wouldn't be neccesary. I know for any and all future purchases I plan on quarantining and getting fecals done before allowing them into a permanent set-up. I think a "First Frog Horror Story" topic should be added to begginer disscussion to help people realize some of the results of not following the guidelines established by expeirenced froggers. I know reading posts of those who attempted to save a frog after letting something go without catching it early enough really helped me understand the neccesity of quarantine.
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Old 05-03-2008, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Frye
Please don't say that there is a chance that a diseased frog will live as long as a disease free frog. This has been thrown out there before and I know of very few froggers who even have the possibility of having ran a scientific test to prove that diseased frogs live as long as healthy frogs. But I can only guess they do not.
"Diseased" and "disease-free" is a different argument. Diseased would indicate an "interruption, cessation, or disorder of body functions, systems, or organs" (Stedman's Medical Dictionary). I stated:
"If a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs, places them into a completed tank and provides appropriate husbandry conditions - the chances are very good that those frogs will live quite content for a significant period of time. Is there a chance the frogs overall longevity is compromised due to the presence of a parasite? Certainly. But is there a chance they will live as long as a pair of frogs that were not quarantined - but housed in the same manner? Yup."

But - let's say that the unquarantined frogs have the possibility to have some sort of parasite. And the unquarantined frogs are "sterile". Will the unquarantined frogs have the possibility to live as long as the sterile frogs. Yes - as we have no evidence to suggest otherwise. Is there a possibility that the unquarantined frogs (all other variables being the same) will die earlier? Yes. And is there a possibility that the unquarantined frogs will live longer than the sterile frogs? Yes. You are very right, the scientific tests haven't been done; and because of that - all options are possible and legitimate.

If you feel that the unquarantined frogs will die sooner, that is your opinion, which you are absolutely entitled to. But if the foundation for your argument is the lack of evidence, you must accept the fact that there is the same possibility for the other outcomes. However - if you were to say that you were going to compare frogs infected with lungworm (Rhabdias sp.) with frogs that were not infected - then that would be a different story. There is plenty of evidence that shows the pathologic effect of lungworm infection.

Quarantine alone is of little use if you do not know what to look for in a sick frog, and if you don't perform testing to determine the parasites present in the animal. And you are never going to be able to test for everything. So there is always a risk.

Quote:
But proper quarantine is the essence of proper husbandry, not to be placed in some sub-section of husbandry issues.
Feel free to change the title if this is the only issue.........
If this is the way that you feel, and you feel that the hobby is lacking - a much more productive way to approach the issue would be to draft a sheet that explains how you feel quarantine should be done, what to look for, and how to look for it. Making a blanket statement that you feel that "NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made" is all well and good, but I don't see how that helps.
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Old 05-04-2008, 12:31 AM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Quote:
Let me start with your "hyper-quarantine" concerns and go from there.
My quarantine containers consist of....
You never actually addressed my concerns...you instead turned to talk about your quarantine methods, which I actually have no concerns about.

Would you mind addressing the actual quarantine method I have concerns about?

Quote:
Quarantine is one of the absolutely accepted and practised procedures by Zoos, aquariums, universities, ASN/Treewalkers (which you are a member of Ron)....
And which also functions under the assumption that everyone who joins has plenty of room for improvement and learning.

Quote:
But proper quarantine is the essence of proper husbandry, not to be placed in some sub-section of husbandry issues.
Feel free to change the title if this is the only issue.........

If this is the way that you feel, and you feel that the hobby is lacking - a much more productive way to approach the issue would be to draft a sheet that explains how you feel quarantine should be done, what to look for, and how to look for it. Making a blanket statement that you feel that "NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made" is all well and good, but I don't see how that helps.
Agreed.
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

I was quarantining my frogs in a 12g tank with Creeping fig covering a small layer of soil, leaf litter, coco hut, extra corkbark, driftwood. I was misting 2 times a day and couldn't keep the humidity up and the temp down so I decided to take the QT tank downstairs to a cooler part of the house. I broke the tank on the way down the stairs and had no choice but to put my frogs in the display viv. I had to do something quick and go to the ER. (14 stitches from the glass). When I got home I saw a nice big pile of poop on a piece of leaf litter and knew it was too late if they were infected with something. Now their display tank has become their very large QT tank. (my husband is caving on a bigger tank ) I brought poop samples to a local vet who claimed he did an exam on the frogs ($140 and just looked at them) and said the poop was clear. Since I got a feeling this vet wasn't real up to speed on frog poop or frog health I am now collecting enough to send to Dr. Frye. I think QT tanks are a definate must simply for the fact that trying to find collectable poop in a 37g tank with dark soil isn't easy to do. QT tanks are also great for observation and to learn what is normal and what isn't.
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:43 AM
 
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Quote:
Originally Posted by rozdaboff
If this is the way that you feel, and you feel that the hobby is lacking - a much more productive way to approach the issue would be to draft a sheet that explains how you feel quarantine should be done, what to look for, and how to look for it. Making a blanket statement that you feel that "NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made" is all well and good, but I don't see how that helps.
It is the way I feel Rob. I wasn't joking.
Gotta run , and I will answer the concerns later Ron, but think about this Rob, all the "stickies" and "great posts for beginners" and "PLEASE READ THESE POSTS BEFORE BUYING YOUR NEW FROGS, PLEASE, PLEASE", seem to fall by the wayside next to the thread headlines, hit counts, and the little spinning whirlygigs stateing that this is a "HOT" thread.
It helps beginners read about quarantine. All angles.

Rich
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Old 05-04-2008, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Just to touch on a earlier thread.. Not all parasite are automatically deleterious to the host, for example, pinworms in a number of species have been shown to increase nutrient availability (this has been documented in bullfrog tadpoles) by assisting in the breakdown of cell walls.

And to head off Rich saying that pinworms have not been found in dendrobatid frogs.. they have been found in D. parvulus (I don't have time to run down where this is with the new nomenclature (see http://www.jstor.org/pss/3279281 for the reference) and D. histrionicus (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14550481).
There is more information in this thread beginner-discussion/topic21772-90.html

While quarantine is important especially with respect to lungworms and hookworms as these can directly infect the frogs and build up to super populations (and cost a lot of money in having to strip down and redo enclosures), the presence of some parasites do not automatically mean the end of the world as our understanding of these parasites is also evolving.

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Old 05-04-2008, 02:50 AM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

I agree on QT'ing. Having been in the herp hobby for about 40 years I've learned the hard way about quarantine. Snakes infested with mites and internal parasites - most probably WC, but sold as CBB and "parasite-free", etc, etc. Even health-looking animals from well-known breeders can occasionally have parasites. And parasites can come from food as well.

Herp shows especially worry me, as I've seen how fast mites can spread through an entire collection of snakes.. a couple mites at a show that end up on your clothing somehow (brushing up against someone that has handled an infested animal is all it would take) can make it into your enclosures and the fun begins. I would imagine other parasites can do the same, and aren't as readily identified. Luckily dart frogs are usually in isolated containers at shows, but snakes, and lizards especially seem to get repeatedly held, then the person walks to the next table and handles that lizard, and so on.. so there's definitely a chance for parasites to spread that way. Or maybe I worry too much.

I do feel I owe it to the animals in my possession to take the best care of them possible. It's tough at times, though, because they can't tell me if they hurt or when they don't feel good. And sometimes by the time their behavior changes (if it changes) it can be quite serious.

So, yes, QT. Biggest beginner mistake? It'd be on the list of "Top ## biggest", but like any hobby there are a multitude of "big" mistakes that can be made. As mentioned earlier, improper caging conditions (lack of hide spots, etc), improper temps, large temp changes - things like that can stress a frog and weaken it as well. I've seen a lot of young beginners that think herps are to be handled, and I think this is a big mistake as well. In general this stresses most herps, (is this thing going to eat me???) and can eventually cause problems that ripple through the animals health. This list could go on & on.. but I think you get the idea.

Maybe we need a beginner "checklist" of things to do. Such as: Selecting a frog type (do not buy the frog yet!), Proper viv sizing, proper viv setup, temp stability, culturing food, purchasing a frog, quarantining and fecals, adding animals to the viv, etc. I know I left some things out, but just an idea. Looking at that list this could almost be a book. There is enough great material on this board that a nicely laid-out checklist could have a selection explained with an intro paragraph and linked to relevant threads.

I'm too long-winded tonight.. punchin' out! :wink:
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Old 05-04-2008, 04:01 AM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

I also quarantine all new arrivals, in about the same way Rich has described.

Ironicly, I never lost a frog until I began quarintining, but then the frogs I had before (that went straight into the viv) are generally very hardy (auratus, imitator nominat), the frogs that I have lost while in quarantine were amazonicus, reticulatus, bi-color, tarapoto imitator, yellow fantasticus and nancy pumilio. lost exactly one of each, and I usually buy in groups of five (mostly "advanced frogs").

I don't blame the quarantine process, or the breeders I got them from...natural selection?
Then again, I do feel that it is way less stress on the animal, being in a 10+gallon tank, vs a 190 oz tub that gets picked up once maybee twice a day.
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Old 05-04-2008, 09:37 AM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

I do some kind of “light” QT.
As I understand the proper way to quarantine is to have your frogs in sterile containers for about 90 days, changing them to a new sterile container every week to prevent re-infection.
I have small tanks I also use for raising froglets. They have a piece of treefern on the bottom for drainage, one small bromeliad (because frogs just seem to feel much more secure when they can hide themselves and observ the environment from inside a bromeliad) some film canisters and a thick layer of leaves.
These small tanks allow me to monitor the frog more closely (very easy to see if they are eating, which is much more difficult in a big full-grown tank) and act faster when something seems wrong with them (losing weight, …).
I move the frogs to their permanent enclosure after a few weeks when they show no problems.
I know this is not the way I am supposed to do it, but I agree with some previous posters saying that bare quarantine tanks can be very stressful for some frogs and they often do very poorly in them. I also experience that it can be very difficult to maintain the right climate (humidity & heat) in these small tanks and the variety of food in the big tanks is incomparable to the microfauna in the small tanks.
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Old 05-04-2008, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

While I agree with the general idea of Quarantining I think you can not overlook the "stress" factor when doing so which in the end can make the frogs more susceptible to various things. A move either from a show or shipping is stressful and then to place the frogs into a small container with limited hiding spots creates a bigger problem than adding them straight to a tank.

Quarantining is some sense is not for the beginner as many times the beginner would be more successful with adding the frogs directly to a large home. One must also look at the overall aspects of a beginner from cost, setup, and etc. Fact is after all of things required to get going into a hobby like this I am not sure Quarantining is at the top of the list.

Thoughts on what I think is are at the top of the list in order.
- Temperatures
- Food
- Tank setup
- Supplements
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Old 05-04-2008, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathalieB
I do some kind of “light” QT.
As I understand the proper way to quarantine is to have your frogs in sterile containers for about 90 days, changing them to a new sterile container every week to prevent re-infection.
Actually unless there is a positive fecal sample and the frogs are under treatment this is not required. The quarantine enclosure can be a simple set up with some sphagnum moss and even plant cuttings. The fecal should be collected from a clean container such as shoebox lined with moistened unbleached papertowels (most dendrobatids will pass a fecal within a couple of hours). Many institutions use 30 days or 3 clean fecals whichever is longer for thier quarantine period.

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Old 05-05-2008, 01:49 PM
 
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

As to the concerns about stressing due the the fact the quarantine container is bare. I don't know who is suggesting quarantining with those absolute bare conditions, but a clean paper towel 'substrate' with a decent amount of pothos or the like, and at least a hide per frog works wonderfully. I happen to lay leaf litter in the 1.5 gallon tubs. I have about 45 frogs, juvis, froglets, ect. , many of which are considered tougher morphs to work with, in these 1.5 gallon tubs and really don't think I have ever lost any to bacterial infections due to paper towel substrates. The whole quarantine set-up costs a total of less than $5. It is a fairly stress free thing actually. A frog is by itself with zero competition for food or anything else. The quarantine tub is opened about twice a week for feeding, just like other frogs out of quarantine. The tubs are not shaken , bumped, tossed, or mollested in any way , so as to stay stress free. I know of many people who have placed their frogs into what was a very nice looking set-up only to have to tear it down later after finding their frogs not to be doing so well. At this time the sick frogs are really stressed and sick to boot. If you want to treat you need to capture the sick frogs and place them into something very similar to a 1.5 gallon quarantine tub, test, treat, test, ect. So, is it a better idea to place them in quarantine before they start showing signs of being sick or after? The whole idea of quarantine is to make sure the frog is healthy for introducing it to a clean tank or clean tank-mate. Testing is the only way to confirm if the frog is healthy. Not everyone can test for everything out there, but there are some fairly cheap "big bang for the buck" tests available. And for those who say they are fortunate to have never acquired a sick frog , that is a good and lucky thing.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

so how long do you keep them in this quarantaine set-up?
And what do you test for? all possible parasites? chytrid?
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathalieB
so how long do you keep them in this quarantaine set-up?
And what do you test for? all possible parasites? chytrid?
I usually keep them in this set-up for three clean fecals. Parasites are a major test concern, but fecals can also detect some infections. I have not really got too many WCs in recently so the chytrid test is not something I worry about too much. I am getting a decent amount of frogs coming in soon and I will be testing those for chytrid. It (time spent) would also depend on whether or not I think the viv the quarantined frog will go into is ready or not. These frogs can live very long periods of time in a 1.5 gallon tub.

Rich
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Old 05-05-2008, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Hey Rich,
Do you use the containers with or without the holes punched on the sides?
Thanks,
Scott
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Old 05-05-2008, 04:26 PM
 
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

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Hey Rich,
Do you use the containers with or without the holes punched on the sides?
Thanks,
Scott
Hey,
Without. There is enough air for the frogs to live weeks without opening. Much as when I ship deli cups. I like the FFs, springs and such to stay in the tub :wink: .

Rich
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Old 05-16-2008, 11:12 PM
 
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Ok, as a total newbie I've been reading everything I can get my eyes on in the newbies section (& more). There's nothing quite as fun as a new obsession...

So it seems agreed: quarantine is a good thing. Wanting to do it right, can you please:
1) Post some pics of your quarantine set ups. I keep hearing about the 1.5 gl ones and I'd like to know what usually goes inside.

2) Suggest a good test kit or 2 to test the fecals?

3) Maybe discuss a few of the most common diseases/afflictions, their causes and their cures, so we newbies can know what to look for and what to do about them?

Thanks, people. This has been a great learning experience & I don't even own a single froggy yet.

Alan
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Old 05-17-2008, 05:46 AM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

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Originally Posted by SeattleSlaw
2) Suggest a good test kit or 2 to test the fecals?
+1. Are there test kits available?

Like Alan, I'm preparing to get my first frogs and it seems to me that not quarantining new frogs is more of an issue for intermediate keepers, not newbies.

Immature frogs purchased from a breeder would have already been exposed to each other so quarantining such frogs would seem a preventative measure after the fact.

I'm planning on buying 5 specimens from a breeder, what would be the advantage of separating them from one another once I receive them?

As per not quarantining new frogs before introducing them to your other frogs, yes, makes total sense to me. But adding new frogs to vivaria is something American hobbyists rarely do in the first place, no?
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:30 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

erik one of the purposes of quarantine is to keep your viv that you probably spent much time and money on from becoming contaminated. if that happens it must then be disassembled, stearalized, and put back together. costing more time and money.
sean
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Old 05-17-2008, 03:46 PM
 
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

I didn't quarantine. So far it hasn't turned out to be a mistake per se, but I will quarantine from here on out. My only reason for not quarantining was that I simply hadn't read that. As much reading as I did before jumping in, I somehow skipped over proper quarantine. Yeah, that could've been any other important process that I skipped. But what matters to me is that my frogs are alive and well, happily hiding about until they here fruit flies hitting the leaves.
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Old 05-17-2008, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Good point on keeping a viv uncontaminated.

I can get my frogs sooner and take my time building a viv if I just use a plastic container.
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Old 05-18-2008, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

How about when a vendor imports say a 50 frog lot? How are they breaking up that lot for QT, fecals, and possible treatment? One per container, two, three.

I guess I have a hard time believing they would put one frog per container and do multiple 50 frog fecals. That would eat into their profit margins pretty quickly. Are there vets out there that give discounts to vendors for large numbers of fecals?
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Old 05-18-2008, 12:54 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

I could be very very wrong, but I was under the impression that if frogs are housed together they are more than likely all going to have the same icky stuf in their system, so if they came in together, they probably have all the same bad stuff
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Old 05-18-2008, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

this is a problem with some vendors they dont quarantine, they dont fecal, and they dont treat.
it seems to me you get what you pay for. some of the sponsers here do import frogs and may be a bit more expensive than your lfs or kingsnake wholesaler but if you talk to them or even read the descriptions of their imports they will tell you how long in quarantine and what treatments have been done. i doubt if many fecal before they sell as that would get ridiculous which is why it should be done by you the frog owner.
we are dealing with living breathing things that can suffer and perish. we are not buying a toaster online (wich may actualy get researched more by some buyers) take your time, find a breeder/dealer you trust and smartly and informatively make your purchase.


then quarantine.

sean
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:30 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Quote:
I could be very very wrong, but I was under the impression that if frogs are housed together they are more than likely all going to have the same icky stuf in their system, so if they came in together, they probably have all the same bad stuff
Probably true.

Quote:
...some of the sponsers here do import frogs and may be a bit more expensive than your lfs or kingsnake wholesaler but if you talk to them or even read the descriptions of their imports they will tell you how long in quarantine and what treatments have been done. i doubt if many fecal before they sell as that would get ridiculous which is why it should be done by you the frog owner.
I'm not sure if prophylatic treatments are a typical strategy with large imports or not. It may certainly make sense for some highly likely conditions. I'm not sure it makes sense to just blindly treat for them all.

I'm kinda hoping that those sponsors that do import large numbers of animals, will chime in here and share their strategies for dealing with this.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:47 PM
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I'm not sure if prophylatic treatments are a typical strategy with large imports or not. It may certainly make sense for some highly likely conditions. I'm not sure it makes sense to just blindly treat for them all.
Operate under the premise that any new acquisition is harboring a heavy parasite load and take appropriate steps to treat with the advice of a vet with appropriate quarantine protocols. Shotgun prophylactic treatments are never a good idea.

Jason
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleSlaw
Ok, as a total newbie I've been reading everything I can get my eyes on in the newbies section (& more). There's nothing quite as fun as a new obsession...

So it seems agreed: quarantine is a good thing. Wanting to do it right, can you please:
1) Post some pics of your quarantine set ups. I keep hearing about the 1.5 gl ones and I'd like to know what usually goes inside.
Alan
Alan
I believe these are the 190 oz. containers to which Rich was referring. This is my quarantine rack - perhaps not ideal, as it's in my frog room. Each container is a "mini-viv" with a charcoal drainage layer, a layer of spagnum, and a pothos or philodendron micans cutting. I always leave a small area without substrate or charcoal for a pond (easier to suck out excess water). Some of the more shy species also have a couple magnolia leaves for hides.


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Old 05-19-2008, 03:38 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

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Operate under the premise that any new acquisition is harboring a heavy parasite load and take appropriate steps to treat with the advice of a vet with appropriate quarantine protocols.
Jason, I agree this is the smart thing to do for a hobbiest's new aquisitions. But how would you handle a large number of wholesale frogs? If you imported 50 pumilio for resale, what strategy would you execute for their QT, test, and treatment? One per QT container, initial fecals for all, treat as necessary, follow up fecals till clear? And how about Chytrid tests? Would you test them all or a just a sampling? Some of these strategies seem like they would be very cost prohibitive.

Unfortunately, economics probably has a lot to do with, to what degree these animals are tested and treated. Behavior may be a concern as well. Putting four pumilio in one small QT container, certainly has risks.
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Old 06-06-2008, 05:35 PM
 
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Quote:
Originally Posted by pl259
Quote:
Operate under the premise that any new acquisition is harboring a heavy parasite load and take appropriate steps to treat with the advice of a vet with appropriate quarantine protocols.
Jason, I agree this is the smart thing to do for a hobbiest's new aquisitions. But how would you handle a large number of wholesale frogs? If you imported 50 pumilio for resale, what strategy would you execute for their QT, test, and treatment? One per QT container, initial fecals for all, treat as necessary, follow up fecals till clear? And how about Chytrid tests? Would you test them all or a just a sampling? Some of these strategies seem like they would be very cost prohibitive.

Unfortunately, economics probably has a lot to do with, to what degree these animals are tested and treated. Behavior may be a concern as well. Putting four pumilio in one small QT container, certainly has risks.
I know that I have much more than 50 adult frogs. Each and every one has had fecals either per animal or per enclosure/group ship/whatever animals were held together. Knowing that most ships/froglets/whatever frog I have traded for over the years will most likely be held with others. I do this to a certain extent and would also guess that if one , two, three, of my new group of 50 that came in have critters , then most will likely have nasties. Putting four frogs together in Q has no more risk (unless they really were ALL caught, packaged, and held by themselves, hahahaha) if done right than two. You can treat four the same as one or two. Cytrid is another matter and while a very substantial potential threat has not been turning up in the HUGE numbers that many other parasites regularly do.
So, bottom line for wholesalers, it is quite possible to sell large groups of frogs that have been tested and treated. It is up to the dealer to take it upon his/herself to do this. Just as it is for them to find out where the frogs they sell come from. Unfortunately this does cut into the almighty $ and takes a little time and care to be done properly.

But to get this back to where I initially thought the major help was needed, wether or not you are an old pro or a brand spankin' new frogger it is ALWAYS best to do a proper quarantine with each and every new group of frogs obtained.

Rich
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Old 06-06-2008, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Wow, can't believe that I've missed this thread so far. I would just like to throw my hat in with the camp that heartily endorses QT. Unlike Rich, I have lost a few frogs during quarantine. A few years back I lost about a dozen pairs/juvies (bastis, bri bri, imitators, and GL panguana) due to something that came in on an individual or a group. At this point in time I was foolish enough to keep all my QT frogs on the same rack, and use the same dusting container, and neglect glove changes between temporary enclosures. A couple of spot histologies on the frogs I lost didn't reveal anything, but a little extra effort could have certainly saved several of those individuals. Fortunately the loss was nothing compared to what might have happened had I foregone quarantine entirely and introduced the frogs to the rest of my collection.

I do have one question for the people that use the plastic 190oz tubs; I have used them in the past but removing the lid was always so loud and resonant that the inhabitants would go nuts whenever I needed to feed. Is this not a problem anymore, or is there an easier way to take the lid off?
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Old 06-06-2008, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
I do have one question for the people that use the plastic 190oz tubs; I have used them in the past but removing the lid was always so loud and resonant that the inhabitants would go nuts whenever I needed to feed. Is this not a problem anymore, or is there an easier way to take the lid off?
I've found that you don't need to COMPLETELY seat the lid to keep QTed animals safe and inside. A light push and the lid stays put.
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Old 06-06-2008, 07:31 PM
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I've found that you don't need to COMPLETELY seat the lid to keep QTed animals safe and inside. A light push and the lid stays put.
Will it keep flies in as well?
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Old 06-06-2008, 07:35 PM
 
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Default Re: NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

Unfortunately I have found that each time I have purchased decent numbers of the 190 tubs the lids fit a bit different. I did have one group that I thought to be a bit too tight, but they seemed to loosen a bit after use. I have also found it not needed to totally remove the tops when feeding.

Rich
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