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Old 04-27-2015, 03:29 AM
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Default Water Condition Requirements

So I did a few searches to try to find answers already. I found a lot of threads about how to get water that doesn't have contaminants or how to remove contaminants, but nothing on exactly what contaminants these frogs are sensitive to or what water conditions they prefer.
I have lots of fish and know what they need in their water and how to achieve all their varying requirements, so I don't need to know how.
I'm just trying to figure out what parameters to aim for in the frog water.

I know chlorine in the water isn't good, but other than that..
Are they sensitive to metals in the water?
Are there any other specific contaminants, besides obvious things like chemicals, that they are sensitive to?
Do they like soft water, alkaline? Probably soft since they live on the forest floor with lots of decaying plant matter, right? What is the ideal pH to aim for?
I'd imagine they benefit from having some minerals in the water, right? If so, could I put a little AQ salt (different from marine salt) in the water? Would they use the electrolytes from it like fish do?
Do parameters vary by species or are they basically the same for them all? If species makes a difference, I'm looking at either getting P. terribilis or P. bicolor, so knowing their requirements would be helpful.
Am I just over thinking this...?

Thanks for reading!
Any replies to are much appreciated!

Last edited by Lizzz; 04-27-2015 at 03:33 AM.
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Old 04-27-2015, 04:55 AM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

It would be best to use distiller water or RO/DI water. These waters are very clean and safe for the frogs. Usually things like monitoring the ph and the others you mentioned are not something that you would need to worry about in a frog tank. I have never heard of anyone testing for these things with their frogs.
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Old 04-28-2015, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

I just go with distilled water for everything. I had started with a monsoon misting system, but during a recent clean out pulled it out and have just been going with hand misting twice a day, still with distilled water.

I'm not totally familiar with all the science behind it, but I think the bigger things you'd want to check the PH levels on would be the kinds of substrate you're using. I'd assume anything that's being sold specifically for vivariums is gonna be fine, but if you go with something "outside the box" you might want to get some strips and check it.
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Old 04-28-2015, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

Not sure if you saw this thread already, but here it goes: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beg...art-frogs.html
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Old 04-29-2015, 03:24 PM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

I had not, thanks.
Okay, so it would seem that they like soft water, though I still have found no definite answer to that, but it makes sense.
I still would like to know if I can put in a little AQ salt for the minerals and if they would use the electrolytes.
Other inexpensive mineral sources that I can add?
I also would like to know if they are sensitive to heavy metals in the water.
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzz View Post
I had not, thanks.
Okay, so it would seem that they like soft water, though I still have found no definite answer to that, but it makes sense.
I still would like to know if I can put in a little AQ salt for the minerals and if they would use the electrolytes.
Other inexpensive mineral sources that I can add?
I also would like to know if they are sensitive to heavy metals in the water.
I think that the link that JP provided about also contained a link that had your answer from Ed.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beg...tml#post614941

I understand what you are asking, but given this information, I do not see any reason why you would want to add anything to your water if your frogs are healthy. The only exception being a solution such as amphibian ringers given under a vets care for a sick frog. Thoughts?
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Old 04-30-2015, 01:11 AM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtic Aaron View Post
I think that the link that JP provided about also contained a link that had your answer from Ed.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beg...tml#post614941

I understand what you are asking, but given this information, I do not see any reason why you would want to add anything to your water if your frogs are healthy. The only exception being a solution such as amphibian ringers given under a vets care for a sick frog. Thoughts?

The links did not really answer any of my questions. It told me what some other people do, but did not answer my questions. The link that you have posted tells me that the frogs can adapt to mineral deficient water or water with too many minerals, but does not tell me what the ideal water conditions would be, which is what I'm looking for. It does make me further believe though, that frogs would do better in water that does have some minerals in it (because it talks about the salamanders having to re-absorb the minerals lost in mineral deficient water), but I am still left not knowing how much to add. So while it has been somewhat helpful and I do appreciate your responses and your effort in trying to help me, to be accurate, no, it has not really answered my questions.

To answer your question.
I'm sure they would survive in just regular R/O or distilled water. They clearly get enough minerals to at least sustain them from their food and can obviously survive on that. But if I could help them do better and be healthier, and possibly live longer and have better immune systems by adding minerals to the water that they will absorb, then I would rather do that than give them just plain R/O or distilled water.
So that is why I want to add minerals and am trying to figure out what to add. And I feel like certain answers that I want are difficult to find because of lack of knowledge. Which is completely understandable because why would there have ever been research conducted about whether or not added minerals in the water would be beneficial to dart frogs, and if so how much? I can't think of a reason why research would be funded for that, and it likely hasn't been, which would explain why I can't seem to find definite answers to my questions.
So I'm basically hoping that someone who has had dart frogs for a long time and has gotten curious about this and tried it will respond telling about any differences, if any, they noticed between frogs with out added minerals in the water and frogs with minerals in the water.
I'm just being thorough. That's all. Nothing wrong with that.

Last edited by Lizzz; 04-30-2015 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 04-30-2015, 01:52 AM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

What specific water would you be adding stuff too? I think a lot of the misters and foggers are really finnicky about the water being pretty pure so they don't clog up.

If it's water for a water feature, I would tell you from my own builds with water that enough of the substrate the leaf litter gets in it that the water is picking up a lot of minerals from that stuff. So it kind of conditions itself.

I guess if you were extra concerned, maybe just set some water aside and drop a few piece of substrate in it until they dissolve? It'd never work in a mister, but you'd be left with water not unlike the moisture they get from hiding out in the bottom of the tank.
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Old 04-30-2015, 02:10 AM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

Good to know.
Other than water to spray, which as you have now stated can't really have minerals added, I also want to have a little wading pond in there for them. And just today I have started to think about making at least some portion of the pond deeper than I originally planned to add one or two tropical aquatic snails. So that is one place where I'd still like to possibly add minerals.
I would probably use a hand mister. I've never taken one apart, but I wonder if it would be possible every now and then to disassemble it, clean off the hard water build up with vinegar, and then reassemble it. ?
Do you know how long it typically takes for mineral build up to become problem in misters?

*Edit* - Actually, I just talked myself out of the snail thing, but I'd still like to have a little wading puddle.
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Old 04-30-2015, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

I've never clogged one in relation to the frog world... but I do a lot of BBQ and have clogged a ton in misters I use to spray mop on meats, and they clog up by the nozzle and they're pretty easily to unclog by just soaking them in hot water and then spraying them a bunch.

That pond I have in that link I put in your thread about the chemicals was just distilled water when it started... but it shares the false bottom of the whole vivarium, so as the water drips down through the substrate, it's not totally clear anymore. In another few weeks I was gonna actually check out the PH levels of it and everything to see what all it's picked up from the run off.
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Old 04-30-2015, 03:32 AM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

Oh, I'd love to hear what the test results are. Do you have pH test strips already? If so, do you have ones that test for GH and KH as well? Those values I'd really love to know. The pH alone won't tell me much. The pH will almost certainly read that your water is acidic from the tannins, unless its been picking up calcium carbonate and other minerals from the rocks.
Hmm. Oh yeah, the rocks. So actually that wouldn't be accurate in telling what minerals it has picked up from just the leaves and wood and other organic matter (which is really what I would be interested in knowing) because you have rocks in there that could be effecting the mineral levels in the water as well. Unless you know for a fact that they are sealed (like most rocks sold for fish aquariums) or you just happen to know the exact types of rocks you have and that they won't effect those values.
Darn. Oh well.
Still would be interesting to read the results though.

I'll have to dissect a mister and see how hard it would be for me to remove hard water build up. It would be nice if I could just use the same water for the frogs that I prep for my fish.

*Edit* - I think I will actually do my own test as well. I have leaves that I can use, so I can eliminate the other variables and just have a controlled test of my own. If you do end up testing your water, I'd still like to read the results though, just out of curiosity, if you wouldn't mind posting them.

Last edited by Lizzz; 04-30-2015 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 05-03-2015, 03:46 AM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

I do have test strips. I have
these these
one here.

The rocks in the water aren't sealed, they're just slate rocks I had some something else that I cleaned up. Then the banks of the pond are a mix of aquarium gravel and fluval stratum.

I ran it on my pond today and came back with a GH of 15 to 20, KH of around 10 and a Ph of 7 still. So the water is picking up little bits of something from somewhere to nudge the hardness a bit. I'm not sure if that little dribble of water is enough to be knocking CO2 out of the water for the KH though.
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Old 05-03-2015, 04:01 AM
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Default Re: Water Condition Requirements

Dendrobatids tend to natively inhabit soft water regions, be cautious about adding in too many minerals.

Water Quality in the Napo River Basin (Ecuadorian Andean Amazonia): The Andean Amazon Rivers Analysis and Management project (AARAM) Information | Open Access Article | openaccessarticles.com)

No real hard data there, but gives you an idea of what you're looking for.
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