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Old 10-01-2006, 07:50 AM
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Default Number of frogs and tank size questions

Iíve been reading and planning for the past few weeks on how to start into this. Originally I was thinking of designing a larger custom tank as my first project. A corner style tank, about 26 inches across the front, 13 inches on the sides before turning in 45 degrees to a corner 26 inch from the front and 40 inches tall.

After more reading Iím thinking this would be overkill if my goal is to eventually have a few species of frogs; Iíd be better off with multiple smaller tanks. If Iím understanding what Iím reading I donít want to have multiple species in the same tank and I generally donít want to keep more than 3 or 4 frogs in the same tank to prevent m/m, m/f, f/f aggression. I was thinking to start with leucomelas, then ad more species (different tanks) in phases as I gain experience.

I know about the 5 gal/frog guideline but assume there is there is still a limit, just because I have a 40 gallon tank doesnít mean I should put 8 frogs in it. Is this correct, what is the most frogs I should put in a tank?

After pricing materials for my original design, I found it was outside my budget. At the 40 inch height I was told 1/2 inch acrylic would be recommended and is very expensive. Thinking about the species number and population constraints I have changed to a 24x18 inch by 24 inches high design. Seeing that many people use standard size fish tanks, I would think 24 inches high, even with a false bottom and some substrate would provide decent space for terrestrial as well as more arboreal species. True? Would ľ inch acrylic be durable enough for this size or should I only go down to 3/8 (Iím planning to put a hood with light on top as well)?

Glass vs. acrylic? I see glasscages.com has a 24x24x36 high glass tank with hinged front door that looks interesting for $175. This gets back to a bigger tank again but does this seem like a good price, would my smaller design tank in acrylic be near the same price suggesting I should just get the larger glass tank?

Would one misting head be sufficient to cover a tank this size or would two or more be more appropriate?

Sorry about mishmashing all of these different questions into one post but from what Iíve already seen on the board, Iím sure Iíll get some good answers.
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Old 10-01-2006, 09:22 AM
 
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This is knowledge your questions, that I have acquired in being a newbie. and in learing about the frog hobby. I will answer in the order that's in your post.

!. Multiple tanks is a better idea, but it does not preclude you from having a larger show tank, when you want. I suggest you explore info on (quarantine/disease control, as well as you have explored aggressive behavior in same/cross species) to determine your needs, and as your budget will allow. You will find no end for the need of (many)containers in this hobby (for frogs,for water,for frog food, for tadpoles,for froglets, and stuff in general).

2. Correct. That 5 gallon thingy is subject to many variables, as would be an answer to that "what is max number" question. Size for what purpose, would be a better newb. question. Example- 5gal is large for newly morphed out froglets(as they can be hard to find in a bigger tank)- 10 gal is good as a temp tank for "most frogs" as a temp tank(for quarantine or other temp holding needs for two adult)- 20 gal a good general viv size- 30 gal is a good general viv size- in going larger, will your smaller frogs be lost from view most of the time(are said frog type thumbs, dwarf, normal, large size-or are they bold or shy) also are the frogs very Territorial or do they love a herd. Many factors to juggle.

3.- 4. Others do well with 16-18 inch high. Remember the "many tank" idea for arboreal. A quality acrylic factory made, such as "Clear For Life" or "SeaClear" will take all this into account for you, and you will have no problems. If you make your own reasonably thickness acrylic lid and do the proper bracing with acrylic ribs around edges( this helps more than thickness), then things also should be great.
Some peps here say "Glass Only", but I have talked to others and to a breeder that has been in business 16 yrs. and he said he loves his acrylics. Also hood and light can be elevated off the top to control heat or other factors. Glass is usually cheaper but heavy/breaks, and other factors.
Click link below for acrylic info.

Why I Did This Research & How

5. No, two heads would be much better. That is a pretty big vertical(much better for vertically inclined frogs).

Good Luck
Clyde
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Old 10-01-2006, 04:19 PM
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It works out that 24x18x24 is about 45 gallons. What would be a good size community of leucomelas and male/female ratio?

I now realize that I will need at least a couple of staging tanks to quaranteen and bring the frogs up to size before putting them into the main tank.

From the care sheets, it looks like there are three morphs and even though they are the same species, I should pick only one for the tank. If the concensus is that I could have 7 or 8 frogs in my tank, do most people think it is better to get 2 or 3 from a few differnt places for genetic diversity or all from the same place? Is it common for a supplier to be able to provide a diverse "herd" of that size, leucomelas is supposed to be a common species.

It's frustrating because there are so many different aspects to consider for this stuff and I want to be informed so the animals are well cared for. Does anyone have a pill I can just take that will inject me with all of the collective knowledge on the board?
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Old 10-01-2006, 04:33 PM
 
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This is a general answer, as I have been posting much on this and other sites, and I am tired.

Ground space is the main issue, not gallons. being a vertical tank it is low on ground space realitively speaking, compared to gallons.

There are many members here, with more qualifications than I have, to get more specific for you, and my bad back is about to give out, but I wanted to give you a start in the right direction on this matter.
Its Mid West Frog Fest Weekend, and many that would be here are at that event, but before long you will have lots of answers.

Clyde
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Old 10-01-2006, 04:41 PM
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I have 5 leucs in a 46g bowfront viv - my only regret is that the tank is not higher. The leucs still have plenty of room, as they use both the horizontal and vetical space, but it would have looked alot better, imo. Personally, Id go with 4-5 frogs in a viv the size of yours. Mine are always running/hopping around, and 8 in my size tank (which has more floor space then yours) would seem crowded to me. Plus, with 4-5 frogs, getting at least one pair in the future is pretty much a given. As far as varieties of leucs go, the wide-banded are by far the most popular, and of those, you just gotta pay attention to if they have green/neon yellow toes. Orange and yellow leucs dont seem to be different morphs, as orange frogs can be produced from yellow parents, and vice versa. I got all my frogs from Cindy Dickens for a deal when I bought 5, and all were already 6 months old. Get the oldest frogs you can afford - Ive been told that lots of places sell froglets in the 1-2 month range, and they're pretty sensitive at that age.
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Old 10-01-2006, 04:50 PM
 
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I was trying to edit my message, and instead I created a quote. I just wanted a comma!
Argh
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Old 10-01-2006, 05:57 PM
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Leucs will utilize vertical space as well as ground space - at least 2-3 of mine are always up in the broms wandering around. They seems to take advantage of whatever space is available to them. Very bold, too!
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Old 10-01-2006, 08:56 PM
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I was thinking 24x18x24 would be a good versital size for leucs for just that reason from what I read in their care sheet. If I make this my standard tank size I should be able to adjust how I scape it to maximize ground space for a more terestrial species, put some overhanging structures and caves at different levels when creating the GS/Sil/CC backgrounds...

Have people ever made modular encolsures are larger enclosures with dividers to seperate areas for different species but a common false bottom/water section to reduce material cost or build time?
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Old 10-02-2006, 05:13 AM
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My first tank was a converted fishtank, and although the frogs were fine, I have to say I didn't like it. You get a much greater sense of space - plus the plants get some decent room to grow, in a taller tank. Obviously plants grow up, and before you know it they are all up against the roof. and blocking out the light

All my tanks now are tall, and you can put so many ledges etc that there is still a considerably larger area for the frogs than just the floor. Plants still grow, but are easier to prune.

Small tanks are fine for maintaining the frogs, but when you have such a beautiful animal, its a real shame not to display it in a tank that has as good planting as possible.

I have to say, the plants I want have always been far more challenging than the animals, but essential for them to look their best
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Old 10-02-2006, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdcook72
I was thinking 24x18x24 would be a good versital size for leucs for just that reason from what I read in their care sheet. If I make this my standard tank size I should be able to adjust how I scape it to maximize ground space for a more terestrial species, put some overhanging structures and caves at different levels when creating the GS/Sil/CC backgrounds...

Have people ever made modular encolsures are larger enclosures with dividers to seperate areas for different species but a common false bottom/water section to reduce material cost or build time?
The tank size you're talking about would be perfect for leucs. My plywood tanks are 22 h x 19.5 deep x 14 wide (all internal measurments) and my leucs use the whole thing. For your size tank, I would be comfortable with 5-6 leucs provided they all got along. If there were issuse, I'd deal with them as they arose. And you are right, that tank size would work for pretty much any species you'd want to keep.

For your misting question, I'd recomment using at least two nozzles, but if I were running that setup, I would use four.

The modular setup has been discusses - usually when someone sees the 60g on glass cages that has dividers in it - but cross contamination becomes an issue with a system that shares a false bottom so the idea hasn't taken hold to the best of my knowledge.



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Old 10-05-2006, 07:29 AM
 
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Default who said you need 1\2" acrylic

This may be a little late out of time, but who ever said you need 1/2" acrylic is on crack. I just recently built a new tank measuring 40"h X 48"L X 14"D and only used 1/4" acrylic. I was told that 1/4 acrylic was sufficient "by an expert tank builder" if the water level in tank did not go over 12" high. My tank has a full slide out front door that is 16" from the bottom. I wanted to test his theory and filled the tank to 15", wich totaled about 28 gal. The tank stood up perfectly and did not bow. I was able to slide the front door in and out with no difficulty.....Hope you take my word and try that custom tank.
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Old 10-05-2006, 03:20 PM
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It is possible that the person I spoke with did not communicate that the tank was only getting three inches of water when he spoke to his acrylic person, hence the 1/2" thickness. That is good to know that you've built a tank that high from 1/4" and it is holding up fine. I think I'll still stick with the smaller dimensions for a couple of tanks so I can get a few different species but will keep that in mind for a larger "show" type of tank in the future.

You mentioned a full slide out front on your tank; could you give some more details on that? I want to have a sliding front on my tank and have come up with an idea but it seems that the fabrication costs for it may make it impractical. I'm coming up with a different idea now, not as "slick" but less complicated and easier/cheaper to build.

How about the top on yours, is it removable or is it glued in place? After reading other posts on the board I'm concerned with warping. On my original design it is removable to make setup/maintenance easier but if I make the sliding door cover the full width of the front I should have enough access to fix the top in place. I may try to make the sides and back by bending a continuous piece to simplify construction even further. You can see my original design below.


Overall:


Door:


You can see the details on the rest of the pieces in my gallery but they're pretty much just rectangles.
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Old 10-05-2006, 03:40 PM
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Something that may have been overlooked, is if you're going to have someone cut these pieces for you, is to dimention them in decimal and give tolerances. It's common practice that if something is written in fractions, and a tolerance isn't specified, that the tolerance is +/- 1/16" - which is way too wide for this IMO. This jumped to mind when I was looking at the tongue and groove joint for the door.

Also, the handle for your door doesn't have a dimention for where it is in respect to the sides. It looks like it's centered, but with out a dim... :wink:



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Old 10-05-2006, 07:03 PM
 
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about the sliding front and side door on my tank, i built tracks out of acrylic wich is very very basic. i do not know how to post pics on this sight so i will give you my email. email me back and i can send you some pics of what i did. [email protected] . I dont see that building these tracks would work on glass though since my tank is all acrylic and i was able to fuse the acrylic track to the tank.
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:19 AM
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defaced:
Thanks for mentioning tolerances, if I get the pieces cut somewhere I'll be sure to cover that. I know there's know measurements for the door handle, I thought about putting them in but it wasn't critical for what I was using the diagrams for. It is centered
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:18 PM
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mynamesamiam:

Thanks for offering the pictures. I sent you an email and have updated my profile to include my email as well.
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