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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2015, 04:22 PM
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Default Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

I am starting this thread because I have a lot of concerns with these frogs. First and for most I would like to know if any members on the board know 100% that this frog exist in the wild and have seen it first hand or have picture evidence of its wild existence.

If you have them and have bred them I am curious as to what the babies look like.

The reason for voicing my concerns is I recently found out that certain frog breeders in foreign countries have been feeding frogs a powder substance that over time turns the frogs pigment blue. Also the color of the pigment is always that same light blue color.

I am looking forward to hearing what everyone has to offer as the price I have seen for these blue galacs is crazy.

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Old 04-20-2015, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taron View Post
I am starting this thread because I have a lot of concerns with these frogs. First and for most I would like to know if any members on the board know 100% that this frog exist in the wild and have seen it first hand or have picture evidence of its wild existence.
Yes, they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taron View Post
If you have them and have bred them I am curious as to what the babies look like.
Might want to try somewhere that has more European users, as they have already been smuggled extensively over there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taron View Post
The reason for voicing my concerns is I recently found out that certain frog breeders in foreign countries have been feeding frogs a powder substance that over time turns the frogs pigment blue. Also the color of the pigment is always that same light blue color.
What color were these frogs supposed to be starting with? I ask... because: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/foo...ml#post1539258

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taron View Post
I am looking forward to hearing what everyone has to offer as the price I have seen for these blue galacs is crazy.
As with any galactonotus... importing them would be illegal.


Edited to add... there are a few threads about these frogs already that have some good information. A quick search would have revealed these:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sci...actonotus.html - This is a good one
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ade...ue-galacs.html
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Old 04-20-2015, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

As Tom stated, yes, I'm 100% sure they exist. Page 10, image K. http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br...2/11295115.pdf

Please cite your sources on the magic blue powder.
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Old 04-20-2015, 05:58 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Blue coloration in PDFs is the result of iridophore concentration and cannot be enhanced by supplementation. These are a real, wild locale.
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Old 04-20-2015, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Quoting this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ade...ue-galacs.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
If I remember correctly, one of the major exporters of galactonotus from the EU was eventually busted by the authorities there for smuggling them from Brazil and laundering them for re-export.

With respect to the morph legality thing... under the LACY Act any individual animal that has been illegally removed from its country of origin or shipped/transacted/transported in any illegal manner is considered illegal. So with respect to the blue galactonotus, they are illegal under the LACY act. Now whether or not the US government will declare them illegal and enforce it is another story. However I have to note that the government can retroactively make that determination if evidence is presented post import. So you cannot stand on the claim that all because they were allowed into the country that they are automatically legal and that would include all offspring from an illegal animal or animals.

I'm going to also say that the claim that since the dam was going to be constructed it was okay to smuggle them out is specious and simply self-justification. Anytime animals are smuggled there is not only a death toll and cruelty toll on the animals themselves but the locals and their governmental agencies have profits and choices stolen from them. It doesn't matter the justification, people should never support illegally taken animals.
As a further issue, your taking the smuggler's word that the animals actually originated at that location without any proof. There is nothing indicating that the frogs were actually from that site.
In addition the UN has called for greater enforcement against smuggling of wildlife so I'm not sure of the wisdom on posting on an open forum that you knowingly purchased smuggled animals.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dev30ils View Post
This is the most important aspect to remember in my opinion.

By purchasing smuggled animals you're giving the smugglers further motive to repeat the process. This can significantly hamper the conservation of the frogs.

If this morph is indeed endemic to a region set to be destroyed by the building of a dam then it is likely that the remaining population would be collected by the scientific community and either relocated or re-homed with accredited facilities in order create a captive breeding plan. By removing the animals from the area via smuggling you're reducing the number of viable individuals for conservation efforts.

Another thing that needs to be reiterated for folks who just don't understand (I see this more on Facebook than here, but I'll say it anyway): our frogs are never candidates for reintroduction to the wild. Purchasing a smuggled (or potentially smuggled) frog with the idea that you're helping preserve the species or morph/locale is bogus.
That whole thread is worth reading if anyone is ever considering purchasing illegal frogs and/or their offspring.
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Old 04-20-2015, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

I have seen around 10 to 15 of these frogs in the flesh and have also researched as much as possible about them. No i haven't actually seen them in the wild myself but from what i understand there are two known populations of blue galacs. Here is a link with a lot of information on galacs (and blue galac populations) http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br...2/11295115.pdf

I have also seen pics from a friend from eggs all the way to froglets and the blue galacs color up and the color fills out the same as the oranges,yellows and red galacs do, with that marble type pattern on the tads filling out more and more as they age.

Im also curious as to what substance and what color are they supposedly changing blue from? I personally hope this is untrue!!

and heres a pic of a blue galac...everybody likes a pic whether you would keep them yourself or not.
[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 04-20-2015, 07:44 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Its seems from discussion on FB that these frogs are alrady here, and being sold.
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

things smuggled into europe usually make their way over here via some "legal" paperwork...

thats how we have a whole bunch of morphs already in the hobby... but there is a point where people should be taking a stand and stopping it from happening again... not facilitating it...
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Are we talking about all Galactonotus being from illegal imports here, or just blues? Is there a sticky somewhere that lists which species/morphs/locales are not available through legal means? This might be a good start toward taking a stand, as carola suggested.

Mark
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

I don't believe U.S. Fish & Wildlife concerns itself about morphs, only species. If someone(s) has been successful in importing the blues here, I would expect they will be bred and distributed without an issue, as galactonotus already exist here legally. Of course, this is all speculation on my part.
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Old 04-20-2015, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
...If someone(s) has been successful in importing the blues here, I would expect they will be bred and distributed without an issue, as galactonotus already exist here legally. Of course, this is all speculation on my part.
All existing galacts outside of Brazil are a product of illegal exportation and therefore, not legal here (USA), regardless of how far removed from the original smuggled animals.

Quote:
Threats to this species are deforestation, fragmentation of habitat, hydroelectric projects (already functioning, under construction, or projected), gold mining, and possibly illegal international trade. Although this species is widely distributed in terrariums in Europe, the United States, and Japan, all these specimens stem from illegal exports.
Page 1: http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br...2/11295115.pdf
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Old 04-20-2015, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

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Originally Posted by JPccusa View Post
All existing galacts outside of Brazil are a product of illegal exportation and therefore, not legal here (USA), regardless of how far removed from the original smuggled animals.
Page 1: http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br...2/11295115.pdf
Link is not working JP, can you re-post it?

I think bsr8129 is assuming that just because someone on FB posts a picture of a blue galact, it must be in the U.S. Every FB post I have seen with a picture of a blue in it has been overseas. If this is not true, please post a link.
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Old 04-20-2015, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Sure....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
As Tom stated, yes, I'm 100% sure they exist. Page 10, image K. http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br...2/11295115.pdf

Please cite your sources on the magic blue powder.
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Old 04-20-2015, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
Are we talking about all Galactonotus being from illegal imports here, or just blues? Is there a sticky somewhere that lists which species/morphs/locales are not available through legal means? This might be a good start toward taking a stand, as carola suggested.

Mark
All galactonotus technically are from illegal stock. You could say the same about several other morphs/species in the hobby. There is a point where it is "what is done is done" and you can only try to discourage new morphs from being demanded while managing to keep a captive population that cessates demand for WC smuggling.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
I don't believe U.S. Fish & Wildlife concerns itself about morphs, only species. If someone(s) has been successful in importing the blues here, I would expect they will be bred and distributed without an issue, as galactonotus already exist here legally. Of course, this is all speculation on my part.
Yes, if blue galactonotus made it here and were bred they would likely be treated the same way as the existing galactonotus by the authorities. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be unethical to continue to create demand for a new morph of an illegal species that isn't already here and established. Either way, its the "getting them here" part that would still be illegal. Forged paperwork should not be something that is encouraged by the hobby.
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Old 04-20-2015, 11:07 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

While what you say is true - the difference is that Brazil is still claiming any species that has been smuggled out is illegal - CB since then or otherwise.

Other countries have not been quite so vociferous.

s
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Originally Posted by carola1155 View Post
All galactonotus technically are from illegal stock. You could say the same about several other morphs/species in the hobby. There is a point where it is "what is done is done" and you can only try to discourage new morphs from being demanded while managing to keep a captive population that cessates demand for WC smuggling.
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Old 04-21-2015, 12:01 AM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

vo·cif·er·ous
vōˈsifərəs/
adjective
(especially of a person or speech) vehement or clamorous.
"he was a vociferous opponent of the takeover"

Had to look that one up.
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Old 04-21-2015, 12:30 AM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsr8129 View Post
Its seems from discussion on FB that these frogs are alrady here, and being sold.
Yes, there are quite a few people on FB openly and vocally advertising Brazilian frogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPccusa View Post
All existing galacts outside of Brazil are a product of illegal exportation and therefore, not legal here (USA), regardless of how far removed from the original smuggled animals.
Yes. It's like stealing a panda from China. Expect frogs are much less conspicuous, and easier to smuggle because of their size.
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPccusa View Post
Sure....
Enough of your obscure literary references!

Give me a page number at least JP. I'm not reading that entire thing.
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Oh read the whole thing!

Might help with your vocabulary!!!!

s
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Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
Enough of your obscure literary references!

Give me a page number at least JP. I'm not reading that entire thing.
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:41 AM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Usually a strong vocabulary is a sign of intelligence. I stress 'usually'.
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
Enough of your obscure literary references!

Give me a page number at least JP. I'm not reading that entire thing.
Having a rough day?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPccusa View Post
All existing galacts outside of Brazil are a product of illegal exportation and therefore, not legal here (USA), regardless of how far removed from the original smuggled animals.

Page 1: http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br...2/11295115.pdf
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Old 04-21-2015, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

I use to have moonshines which is what the article is calling blues. I am referring to the pictures of the ones that look extremely blue. Yes the moonshines do have a hint of light blue to them but they look more white to me personally.

I don't have access to the magic blue powder yet but I know it is being used in Asia on pacman frogs. That is far as I will go with that because I am not one to discuss others businesses. I haven't tried to get a name of it because I don't care to use the stuff but I did become worried that some users may get ripped off and unlike some may think I don't want that to happen.

There is a big difference from this picture to the one offered in the article.



I am trying to better understand what is going on with this locale.

I appreciate everyones input and I am reading what everyone is saying now.
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Old 04-21-2015, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

I am 100% they are in the US already as they were offered to me but I stayed away from them because of the legality issues and my concern with them breeding true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
Link is not working JP, can you re-post it?

I think bsr8129 is assuming that just because someone on FB posts a picture of a blue galact, it must be in the U.S. Every FB post I have seen with a picture of a blue in it has been overseas. If this is not true, please post a link.
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Old 04-21-2015, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taron View Post
I am 100% they are in the US already as they were offered to me but I stayed away from them because of the legality issues and my concern with them breeding true.
The legal aspect wasn't enough?
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

There is a lot of speculation being thrown around about how to "sustain" the blue color in certain lines of Ceratophrys. One of the common ones making the rounds is that it is due to a vitamin deficiency and that if corrected they lose the bluish color. There is also a lot of speculation that they are being fed things like artificial foods meant for aquaculture like eels.

The blue Ceratophrys are to my understanding all derived from the "samurai" lines. I have yet to see what I would consider a true blue frog. Instead they all tend to be a greenish blue and that is readily explained through what is known about anuran coloration where blue originates from light reflected from crystalline structures in the iridopores. The green is the result of the light passing through yellow pigments (carotenoids and/or pterins) and the resulting combination of blue and yellow to produce the green. Now if the frogs were deprived of yellow carotenoids, you would have little yellow color in the skin which would give the frogs a more intense bluish cast. Using preformed vitamin A would prevent the deficiency of vitamin. Now the frogs are going to lose the blueish color over time as it is going to be hard to continually deprive them of yellow carotenoids as these can make up pigments in the feeders or the food of the feeders they are offered and the frogs can then sequester them over time.

I have a hard time believing that someone has a powder that when fed to the frogs can increase blue. The reason is that it would require not only depriving them of all yellow pterins and carotenoids but the conversion of non-iridophores to iridophores. Now I'm not going to rule out soaking them in blue food coloring, feeding them blue food coloring or injecting them with blue food coloring is being used as we see similar things done with albino Xenopus and to a lesser extent Hymenochirus ssp in the pet trade.

A review of the ingredient listing for samurai's frog food doesn't indicate any magic source of blue pigment.

Taron, where have you heard about the magic blue color? Supposedly being unwilling to divulge because it's someonelse's business isn't really going to fly to me as you've already made an accusation that this could be the source of the blue color in the galactanotus. How can there be any meaningful dialog if your refusing to disclose where you got the information?


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Old 04-21-2015, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

No the legal aspect isn't enough because I like to study all the different species and it is always good to know whether or not something is a true locale or if humans have tampered with it.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

How can one import this frogs here?
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by justcoolforyou View Post
How can one import this frogs here?
You can't. They are Brazilian.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Taron the article does not call the "blues" moonshine. Im unsure how to quote it here but if you read the bottom right hand chapter on page 106 it has the information and links to pictures of them on page 108 (pics E,F,G,H) and on page 107 they are shown on a map in the form of asterisks where the two known "blue" populations are found.
On page 101 "moonshines" are mentioned a couple of times separately to the "blue" galacs further down, as i have mentioned above.
My personal opinion after seeing several of these frogs in the flesh and numerous pictures is that the picture you have uploaded has caught the light just right to bring out the blue in them on the photo.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:26 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Wouldnt put it past certain unscrupulous individuals to alter photographs as well, in addition to the above mentioned methods of "color enhancement". Obviously this is separate from the actual issue of alleged alteration of their color by artificial means, but some people will do anything to sell a frog.
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Old 04-22-2015, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taron View Post
The reason for voicing my concerns is I recently found out that certain frog breeders in foreign countries have been feeding frogs a powder substance that over time turns the frogs pigment blue.
Since you have not answered my original question, it's starting to smell like BS, unless you can cite a source. Where/What is the magic blue powder?
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Old 04-22-2015, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Possible magic blue powder in development?

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Old 04-23-2015, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

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Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
Possible magic blue powder in development?

I am the danger! ...I am the one who supplements with the magic powder!
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Old 04-23-2015, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

You forgot the MUA HAHAHAHAAAA !



Tuco: "What is this? This is blue."
Walter: "We used a different chemical process, but it is every bit as pure."
Jesse: "It may be blue, but it's the bomb."


Back on topic. I also find it hard to believe that you could feed something to the frogs to make them blue.
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Old 04-30-2015, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

Sorry I haven't responded been busy and haven't found the time to log on. To answer the question everyone is asking. The whole reason I brought this post up is because I was at a show. A pacman vendor came up to me and asked if I knew the name of the powdered substance used to turn Pacmans blue. I told him I had no idea what he was talking about. He then told me he had purchased approximately 200 pacmans from a person and only the blue ones died. After this anomaly he had them all tested and found out they were all fed a certain substance and they had actually overdosed on it. The substance is gutloaded in the pacman food and causes them to visually look blue. While I don't know the substance I was curious if this could be done to say a yellow galac and cause it to turn blue. This is why I was curious if anyone has seen them first hand in the wild. While it is more likely the galacs are real and not man made I felt the need to bring it up so we could actually discuss it. I believe Ed must know more about the fish food and he knows more about what they are doing then I do.
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Old 04-30-2015, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

I with out a doubt feel like this is probably what is really going on.

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Originally Posted by ZookeeperDoug View Post
Wouldnt put it past certain unscrupulous individuals to alter photographs as well, in addition to the above mentioned methods of "color enhancement". Obviously this is separate from the actual issue of alleged alteration of their color by artificial means, but some people will do anything to sell a frog.
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Old 04-30-2015, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

I also need to add that I used incorrect wording when saying it turns the frogs pigment blue. I should have said it causes the frog to look blue. I am not always the best at saying what I am thinking.
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Old 05-01-2015, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

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..he had them all tested and found out they were all fed a certain substance and they had actually overdosed on it...
The "certain substance" just doesn't pass the smell test with me. It's just too mysterious. Unless we know who said this and what the substance was, it's just doesn't carry much weight at all. I'm not saying you spun a tale and I'm not saying you didn't. But what harm is in sharing who told you this and following up on what the substance was? I mean, there was a test done, therefore there is a report, right? Seems to me that there's no risk here.

A bit of irony here, my avatar is of a crested gecko that I turned blue in PhotoShop.
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

If the pacman breeder wishes to disclose the rest of the details he can. I have informed him of this thread and to EDs comments. I am sure he would like to pick Ed's brain as to what he knows.



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Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
The "certain substance" just doesn't pass the smell test with me. It's just too mysterious. Unless we know who said this and what the substance was, it's just doesn't carry much weight at all. I'm not saying you spun a tale and I'm not saying you didn't. But what harm is in sharing who told you this and following up on what the substance was? I mean, there was a test done, therefore there is a report, right? Seems to me that there's no risk here.

A bit of irony here, my avatar is of a crested gecko that I turned blue in PhotoShop.
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Old 05-02-2015, 07:09 AM
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Default Re: Adelphobates galactonotus Blue

I asked Mike's Phat Frogs to comment on this. Below is what he wrote to me, unedited.

"It is the truth. The bright sky blue pacmans are enhanced in japan."

"I am not able to login but you can quote this on the page. All of the samurai import blues come in bright blue. As time goes on the colors fade on these frogs. That would not be a problem if they would reproduce the same colored offspring as they themselves once were. The bright blues when bred together produce green frogs. Not a normal green because of the pattern type but in now way is it a blue. I have produced the samurai line here in the USA every month consistently for the last 3 years. I have not had 1 baby come out naturally a blue color from his line. I recently found the supplement powder that enhances the primarily green frog to a bright blue. With very few breeders here in the USA who would actually catch this scam...... It's brilliant. Now that time is over and the word is out......"
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