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Old 10-03-2014, 06:57 PM
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Default Blue Galacs

Here are a few (bad mobile phone) pictures of my blue galacs i picked up from Hamm, probably the biggest reptile and amphibian show in Europe a couple weeks ago. [IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]
I know im potentially opening a can of worms here but as i havent found anyone on this forum who has posted about keeping them or on some posts even questioning if they are real, so i thought i would do so myself. Here is what i wrote on a uk forum to answer a few questions....I feel slightly hypocritical saying i do not condone smuggling of wildlife because i have these in my collection, but with this particular frog and reading up on them (before owning them) i came across information stating that the Belo Monte dam site in Brasil will wipe out the area where these frog are located (i have no locale data and it is only what i have read and researched, i havent been there myself or have "solid" proof) So with Brasil not exporting and the area these frogs are supposedly from being destroyed by the dam, i personally have less of a conscience knowing i have them, and for this reason made the purchase knowing the "shady origins" if you like. I have also owned orange galacs from Brasil, which got me wondering if ALL frogs from Brasil are from smuggled stock or did they once export? My biggest issue with keeping anything from the wild is sustainability, because whether a man in a suit has said its ok or not for them to be taken from the wild the end result is the same unless its done in sustainable way! And in this particular case that is irrelevant if they are completely wiping out their habitat!!
Just my view on this, Ross
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Old 10-03-2014, 07:09 PM
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Stunning frogs! Congrats
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Old 10-03-2014, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

They look more like moonshines than blue.
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Old 10-03-2014, 07:34 PM
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Cheers Rigel10. Its the lighting, i took them on a phone. I will try and get hold of a camera and take some better shots as soon as i get chance. The lighting is washing out the pale blue
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there is any illegality for frogs that is morph specific. The only time that comes into play is that if the morph was collected from a legally protected habitat - being country or park.

I suspect that these frogs are no more legal or illegal to own than any of the galacts, no matter the morph. Once again, if someone who knows better, please let me know. I was told by someone that technically all galacts are illegal to own. Perhaps they are viewed differently from some other banned species for one reason or another.
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:42 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

Brazil prohibits export of all flora and fauna.
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

Beautiful frogs! That is a very interesting morph, definitely not something you see everyday

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Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there is any illegality for frogs that is morph specific. The only time that comes into play is that if the morph was collected from a legally protected habitat - being country or park.

I suspect that these frogs are no more legal or illegal to own than any of the galacts, no matter the morph. Once again, if someone who knows better, please let me know. I was told by someone that technically all galacts are illegal to own. Perhaps they are viewed differently from some other banned species for one reason or another.

You are right about the galacts. If I remember correctly, A. galactonotus is found ONLY in brazil which has a ban on the exportation of all wildlife, thus I doubt any of the galacts in the hobby are from legal origin. I guess it could be possible that some could be offspring of animals legally exported for a scientific institution, but I have nothing to confirm that.

Morphology does not apply to what is and is not legal (in most cases), but locality can be very important. Take D. tinctorius for example, It is commonly exported and there are legally collected and exported frogs coming out of Suriname, however there are also localities that are native to Brazil, a country that bans export. Collecting from Brazil would be illegal. So effectively a locality (and potentially morph) can impact the legality of specimens. This doesn't really apply to galacts however since they all are from Brazil...

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Old 10-03-2014, 11:22 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

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Originally Posted by epiphytes etc. View Post
Brazil prohibits export of all flora and fauna.
That is.my understanding as well. The galact morphs in the USA made their way here before i joined the hobby 10 years ago, and I'm not sure how aware people were of the conflict regarding Brazilian law and us having them. It seems the US government hasn't really given 2 poops, and TACITLY seems to consider these morphs legal, (could change anytime I guess)... Not sure how they'd feel about the blues... I think they'd be less likely to look the other way with this new morph.

In general I'm way.more concerned with what my government says and the sustainabilty/conservation, then I am about pissing Brazil off.

I don't know the collection site details, and it's been a long time since I've read about the situation with the dam. If that truly is the only population, and it truly is going to be destroyed then I'd rather see them in captivity then extinct.

But...
Basically I'm not well informed enough to pass judgement. However I do feel obligated to point out that a large % of rainforest habitat is threatened by something and/or someone, so it is a bit of a slippery slope using that as justification for animals of questionable origin.

Like I said I'd rather see it in captivity, then extinct (unless we aren't equipped keep it humanely)... but slippery slope, caution advised.

...My indecisive 2 cents
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:38 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

Dave, did you miss the part that morph has no impact on legality unless that morph resides in a location that would make them illegal? I have imported fish in the past from Africa and Europe. Never was morph a consideration.

Unless there is some information I'm missing, I believe ALL galactanotus are legal OR illegal. If they are illegal, perhaps it's not enforced because they are classified as 'Least Concerned' on the IUCN Red List.

Does anyone know if galactanotus are permitted for importation to the U.S.?
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Old 10-04-2014, 02:35 AM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

From my understanding rules on CB vs WC are different in the U.S. vs EU, in the U.S. it does not matter if progeny of the frogs are CB vs WC they are still considered smuggled. While in EU if CB it's ok. Feel free to add info, this is my understanding talking to froggers that import. A good example is mysterious which is very obtainable in the UK but illegal to import to US.
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Old 10-04-2014, 03:52 AM
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From my understanding rules on CB vs WC are different in the U.S. vs EU, in the U.S. it does not matter if progeny of the frogs are CB vs WC they are still considered smuggled. While in EU if CB it's ok. Feel free to add info, this is my understanding talking to froggers that import. A good example is mysterious which is very obtainable in the UK but illegal to import to US.
I don't think it's that simple, but I have heard almost the same. Each country is responsible for their own enforcement in the EU. Your example of mysteriosus is a good one. In the U.K. and in Germany, they are easily attainable. In The Netherlands there was a recent case in which a person who inherited a tank raised mysteriosus was "caught" by the Dutch government, fought the case and lost. The frog was confiscated and he paid a hefty fine. I think an article about the situation is somewhere on the Dutch Rana site. I was told from a friend of the person who was fined, that he purposely made it a point to get "caught", as he wanted make it a public case. Unfortunately, the gamble did not pay off.
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Old 10-04-2014, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
Dave, did you miss the part that morph has no impact on legality unless that morph resides in a location that would make them illegal? I have imported fish in the past from Africa and Europe. Never was morph a consideration.

Unless there is some information I'm missing, I believe ALL galactanotus are legal OR illegal. If they are illegal, perhaps it's not enforced because they are classified as 'Least Concerned' on the IUCN Red List.

Does anyone know if galactanotus are permitted for importation to the U.S.?
No I got that, but since nothing was done about the olld morphs, our government seems to have tacitly made them legal/grey... buy they can change thier minds anytime.

It remains to be seen how governents wll react to these new ones. But id wager if someone with blue got caught they'd likely get the worse of it compared to someone keeping red, yellow or orange.
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Old 10-04-2014, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

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Originally Posted by Dendro Dave View Post
No I got that, but since nothing was done about the olld morphs, our government seems to have tacitly made them legal/grey... buy they can change thier minds anytime.

It remains to be seen how governents wll react to these new ones. But id wager if someone with blue got caught they'd likely get the worse of it compared to someone keeping red, yellow or orange.
If I remember correctly, one of the major exporters of galactonotus from the EU was eventually busted by the authorities there for smuggling them from Brazil and laundering them for re-export.

With respect to the morph legality thing... under the LACY Act any individual animal that has been illegally removed from its country of origin or shipped/transacted/transported in any illegal manner is considered illegal. So with respect to the blue galactonotus, they are illegal under the LACY act. Now whether or not the US government will declare them illegal and enforce it is another story. However I have to note that the government can retroactively make that determination if evidence is presented post import. So you cannot stand on the claim that all because they were allowed into the country that they are automatically legal and that would include all offspring from an illegal animal or animals.

I'm going to also say that the claim that since the dam was going to be constructed it was okay to smuggle them out is specious and simply self-justification. Anytime animals are smuggled there is not only a death toll and cruelty toll on the animals themselves but the locals and their governmental agencies have profits and choices stolen from them. It doesn't matter the justification, people should never support illegally taken animals.
As a further issue, your taking the smuggler's word that the animals actually originated at that location without any proof. There is nothing indicating that the frogs were actually from that site.
In addition the UN has called for greater enforcement against smuggling of wildlife so I'm not sure of the wisdom on posting on an open forum that you knowingly purchased smuggled animals.

Some comments

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Old 10-04-2014, 08:34 PM
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I'm going to also say that the claim that since the dam was going to be constructed it was okay to smuggle them out is specious and simply self-justification. Anytime animals are smuggled there is not only a death toll and cruelty toll on the animals themselves but the locals and their governmental agencies have profits and choices stolen from them. It doesn't matter the justification, people should never support illegally taken animals.
This is the most important aspect to remember in my opinion.

By purchasing smuggled animals you're giving the smugglers further motive to repeat the process. This can significantly hamper the conservation of the frogs.

If this morph is indeed endemic to a region set to be destroyed by the building of a dam then it is likely that the remaining population would be collected by the scientific community and either relocated or re-homed with accredited facilities in order create a captive breeding plan. By removing the animals from the area via smuggling you're reducing the number of viable individuals for conservation efforts.

Another thing that needs to be reiterated for folks who just don't understand (I see this more on facebook than here, but I'll say it anyway): our frogs are never candidates for reintroduction to the wild. Purchasing a smuggled (or potentially smuggled) frog with the idea that you're helping preserve the species or morph/locale is bogus.
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
If I remember correctly, one of the major exporters of galactonotus from the EU was eventually busted by the authorities there for smuggling them from Brazil and laundering them for re-export.

With respect to the morph legality thing... under the LACY Act any individual animal that has been illegally removed from its country of origin or shipped/transacted/transported in any illegal manner is considered illegal. So with respect to the blue galactonotus, they are illegal under the LACY act. Now whether or not the US government will declare them illegal and enforce it is another story. However I have to note that the government can retroactively make that determination if evidence is presented post import. So you cannot stand on the claim that all because they were allowed into the country that they are automatically legal and that would include all offspring from an illegal animal or animals.

I'm going to also say that the claim that since the dam was going to be constructed it was okay to smuggle them out is specious and simply self-justification. Anytime animals are smuggled there is not only a death toll and cruelty toll on the animals themselves but the locals and their governmental agencies have profits and choices stolen from them. It doesn't matter the justification, people should never support illegally taken animals.
As a further issue, your taking the smuggler's word that the animals actually originated at that location without any proof. There is nothing indicating that the frogs were actually from that site.
In addition the UN has called for greater enforcement against smuggling of wildlife so I'm not sure of the wisdom on posting on an open forum that you knowingly purchased smuggled animals.

Some comments

Ed

It doesn't seem like anyone here knows if it is legal or illegal to import tank raised blues from Europe to the U.S.
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:34 AM
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I'm pretty certain it would be illegal (it should be), but the question is if the government would care. I don't think I would risk buying any myself though, especially if it is traveling from overseas...

John
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
It doesn't seem like anyone here knows if it is legal or illegal to import tank raised blues from Europe to the U.S.
For me at this point in time it is not ethical, so whether it is legal or not.. is irrelevant.

Says the woman who keeps and adores galactonotus, but I do not want new morphs unless they are sustainably imported and totally legal.
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:45 AM
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It doesn't seem like anyone here knows if it is legal or illegal to import tank raised blues from Europe to the U.S.
If the frogs have never been legally exported from Brazil then they are not legal in the US. Tank raised does not matter in this situation. USFW can and will confiscate the animals.
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Old 10-05-2014, 02:10 AM
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If the frogs have never been legally exported from Brazil then they are not legal in the US. Tank raised does not matter in this situation. USFW can and will confiscate the animals.
How does this work with companies, like jf, that sell galacts openly?
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Old 10-05-2014, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by FroggyKnight View Post
I'm pretty certain it would be illegal (it should be), but the question is if the government would care. I don't think I would risk buying any myself though, especially if it is traveling from overseas...

John
"I'm pretty certain" seems like you are not sure or don't know and "it should be" is only your opinion. I appreciate your opinion though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srrrio View Post
For me at this point in time it is not ethical, so whether it is legal or not.. is irrelevant.

Says the woman who keeps and adores galactonotus, but I do not want new morphs unless they are sustainably imported and totally legal.
I'm glad you recognize there is at least a bit of hypocrisy in your statements. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking down at you or saying I feel any different.

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If the frogs have never been legally exported from Brazil then they are not legal in the US. Tank raised does not matter in this situation. USFW can and will confiscate the animals.
Since morph does not matter to USFW, then the question for me remains, does anyone here know if it is legal or illegal to import tank raised blues from Europe to the U.S.? If it is illegal to import blues, than the red, oranges and yellows in the hobby are just as illegal. Right? Or no?

Not that my question rises above anyone else's here, because it doesn't, but I'm not interested in anyone's personal opinions of what it "should" be or one's personal ethics. I'm just curious of the legality.

Brazilian Yellow Head's anyone?
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Old 10-05-2014, 03:13 AM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

I'm sorry, I should have been a bit more clear and state it better. The "it should be" is actually a fact. Galactonotus are illegal to import. Any of these galacs are illegal to import as they have come from illegal origins (Brazil has never legally exported these frogs) regardless of if they are captive bred or wild caught. The reds, yellows and oranges are just as illegal as far as I know. As I stated earlier, it could be possible that some of these frogs did enter legally through scientific institutions, but I don't know if they did and many certainly do have smuggled origins.

The iffy part is if the government actually cares. They are illegal, but people who import them may not see any repercussions based on past experiences. But that can always change and if more shipments land on US soil, the government may start acting against it.

I hope this is a bit more clear

John
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Old 10-05-2014, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FroggyKnight View Post
I'm sorry, I should have been a bit more clear and state it better. The "it should be" is actually a fact. Galactonotus are illegal to import. Any of these galacs are illegal to import as they have come from illegal origins (Brazil has never legally exported these frogs) regardless of if they are captive bred or wild caught. The reds, yellows and oranges are just as illegal as far as I know. As I stated earlier, it could be possible that some of these frogs did enter legally through scientific institutions, but I don't know if they did and many certainly do have smuggled origins.

The iffy part is if the government actually cares. They are illegal, but people who import them may not see any repercussions based on past experiences. But that can always change and if more shipments land on US soil, the government may start acting against it.

I hope this is a bit more clear

John
Thank you John! Does USFW kep a list online that would allow me to see this info?

I would expect that if someone is successful in smuggling them into the U.S., then it's likely they will be viewed in the same light as the red, orange and yellows. I assume this is the case because they are in no way a threatened species.
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Old 10-05-2014, 03:26 AM
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There might be a list, but I have not seen one. Maybe Ed knows of one? Hopefully he can add a bit more on it.

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Old 10-05-2014, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by joshbaker14t View Post
How does this work with companies, like jf, that sell galacts openly?
As John stated, there is a question of whether or not USFW cares to act upon situations. They may not care about animals that have been long established as captive in the US. That doesn't mean that they won't choose to act upon it at some point, the possibility always remains.

I believe until recently most of the P. terribilis in the US were of some relation to animals originally smuggled from Colombia. I believe there is a thread about this somewhere on the board.
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Old 10-05-2014, 05:30 AM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

As a Brazilian, I feel deeply conflicted about these animals in general. They represent the constant plundering of wildlife from rainforest. They are unquestionably illegal, and purchasing them only strengthens and reinforces the illegal wildlife trade -- the worst part about it (in my opinion) being the many animals that end up dying in the process. But I'm sure most (if not all) here are familiar with this dialog.

On the other hand, local governments have made it crystal clear how little they care about the flora and the fauna of the rainforest. Whether its by deciding to build a dam, or holding the forest hostage in order to drill for oil -- all you need to do to see how much they care about the rainforest is to look at satellite images of the Amazon and see the literal scars that people have created into the basin.

I've seen these animals when they were offered up for sale initially in Brazil a few months back. Certainly if I could see them offered up for sale, couldn't local authorities see this as well? The effort of local authorities to curb the illegal trade of these guys seems minimal at best. Tomorrow is actually the Brazilian election day, and one of the candidates, who is supposed to be a big environmentalist, might potentially win in the second round... but as they say here in the US, "meet the new boss - same as the old boss".

The government might take the step of making it illegal to collect and traffic these animals, they make almost no efforts to study and understand the rainforest. I'd make a good wager that before these animals went up for sale in Brazil, no one even knew they existed. The only people that cared enough to find out about these animals, were probably the same ones to profit from their sale. Well, at least now the world knows that this animal exists.
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Old 10-05-2014, 02:16 PM
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So are blue galacs only recently available to the hobby via smuggling? This is what peopls seem to be saying but I just wanted to verify.
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Old 10-05-2014, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

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Originally Posted by easternversant View Post
So are blue galacs only recently available to the hobby via smuggling? This is what peopls seem to be saying but I just wanted to verify.
Yes. No blue galacs have left Brazil without being illegally smuggled, and I'm pretty sure no one has bred them and raised them to adulthood yet.
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Old 10-05-2014, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

So how different are they from the Moonshine Galacs??
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Old 10-05-2014, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

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Yes. No blue galacs have left Brazil without being illegally smuggled, and I'm pretty sure no one has bred them and raised them to adulthood yet.
Just a clarification. These started showing up about 3.5-4 years ago in Germany and I more recently have seen groups of young frogs. So breeding is very likely. Though still from smuggled origins. Robert
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Old 10-05-2014, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

For everyone's reference here are a couple other threads on these...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ade...ue-galacs.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ade.../topics/168769

Cool frogs, and I would rather see them in captivity then extinct like I said, but as Ed pointed out smuggled animals are rarely harvested/shipped in a humane way. That these frogs may be completely wiped out by the dam tempers my reaction some, but still using such things as justification is a slippery slope. To grey for me to slide down...

So I personally wouldn't buy them if I could afford them. If they come in legally or in 10-20 years become as ubiquitous and as accepted as the morphs that have been in the hobby the last 10 years being bred in captivity, then I might reevaluate my position.
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Old 10-05-2014, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

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Originally Posted by Dendro Dave View Post
So I personally wouldn't buy them if I could afford them. If they come in legally or in 10-20 years become as ubiquitous and as accepted as the morphs that have been in the hobby the last 10 years being bred in captivity, then I might reevaluate my position.
Man, imagine if someone successfully did what Tesoros is doing, but in Brazil. Completely legal galactonotus, tincs and more. There would be a huge market for such an operation! I guess we can only hope for a better future...

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Old 10-05-2014, 10:31 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

still hoping for a clarification of the differences.....
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Old 10-05-2014, 10:48 PM
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Default Blue Galacs

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Originally Posted by Judy S View Post
still hoping for a clarification of the differences.....

They are sky blue instead of white. The Moonshines are in the US but the Blues are probably not.
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Old 10-05-2014, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

All dendrobatids are listed as CITES II animals, because they are extremely vulnerable to illegal collecting for the pet trade (and that is what we are in folks). Most D. galactonotus are smuggled through Germany and into the U.S. by hobbyists in need of their next big fix.

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Dave, did you miss the part that morph has no impact on legality unless that morph resides in a location that would make them illegal? I have imported fish in the past from Africa and Europe. Never was morph a consideration.

Unless there is some information I'm missing, I believe ALL galactanotus are legal OR illegal. If they are illegal, perhaps it's not enforced because they are classified as 'Least Concerned' on the IUCN Red List.

Does anyone know if galactanotus are permitted for importation to the U.S.?
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Old 10-06-2014, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

So if these blue galacs were tank born, would it be permissible to bring them in the U.S. from Germany? See below.

--------------------------------------------------------
Appendix-II specimens

An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is required.

An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and if the export will not be detrimental to the survival of the species.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the Convention.

In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

No import permit is needed unless required by national law.
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Old 10-06-2014, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

No, because they have never left Brazil legally to begin with!

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Old 10-06-2014, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

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So if these blue galacs were tank born, would it be permissible to bring them in the U.S. from Germany? See below.
So in my post in this thread about legality, what wasn't made clear? IF the animals are illegally removed from the country of origin, then they and all of their offspring can be considered illegal under the terms of the Lacy Act. This applies even if they have been bred repeatedly in a country. Examples of this.. according to the USF&W, all of the EU mysteriosis are illegal in the eyes of the country of origin and to the US. Castinoticus here in the US are in the same boat. People have them and USF&W recognizes that they are here but according to USF&W they are illegal under the Lacy Act and this does not mean that USF&W at some future point cannot suddenly begin to prosecute people for owning or trafficking them. Yes there is a statute of limitations but each new sale/trade of an illegal animal or its offspring starts a new clock...

As I noted above and before, passing import does not mean that the animals in question are actually legal. USF&W can on review rescind the importation which means that the importer and anyone who purchased those animals, bred the animals and sold the animals are now potentially liable for fines, confiscation, and jail time. There has been a number of years of laxity on the part of USF&W because a lot of their resources were redirected to the NSA but it appears that they are getting their act back together in no small part because there has been a greater clamor to address wildlife trafficking. See for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sci...smuggling.html

It should also be noted that people who get together to import animals illegally have also been charged under the RICO Act.

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Old 10-06-2014, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Blue Galacs

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Originally Posted by ecichlid View Post
Thank you John! Does USFW kep a list online that would allow me to see this info?

I would expect that if someone is successful in smuggling them into the U.S., then it's likely they will be viewed in the same light as the red, orange and yellows. I assume this is the case because they are in no way a threatened species.
No there is not a list. The reason is because an animal could be on a legal list but be illegally exported to another country. That individual animal and all of its offspring are illegal under the Lacy Act.
In the past some of the galactanotus that were exported to the US were the offspring of captive bred animals from seized confiscations that were later released to the hobby in EU. Paperwork from those animals was granted and export to the US occurred. As I understand it, there is a greater scrutiny on this sort of launderings these days particularly when the country of origin makes a fuss over it to the US. This has occurred with castinoticus. Brazil made a big fuss which is why they remain on the USF&W radar to this day.

As I've mentioned before passing through import does not make the animal legal in the longrun. USF&W has the power to review and revoke an import after it occurs. If it shows that there was an attempt to bypass the legal routes (such as the animals were offspring of smuggled animals) then the importer, seller and buyers could all be on the hook for fines, confiscations and jail terms.

If you want to know how USFW rates blue galactanotus file and FOIA and ask if they are legal to import from Europe, but if you do I suggest you disclose the reasons for asking as otherwise it could be viewed as an attempt to launder the animals.

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