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esperanza pumilio

25K views 152 replies 38 participants last post by  ChrisK 
#1 ·
for all of you who have heard about these new pums but have not seen them, here ya go!

my personal favorite since getting into obligates....

I have also moved them into a heavily planted 20gal long for second part of qt as they seem to like it way over their qt tubs where I hardly ever saw them feed....
 

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#37 ·
I hear that the smuggled frogs are even prettier than the legal ones.

Richard.
 
#38 ·
No problem Shawn, i shouldv'e used the option clarifying where i'm from.
It's done now ;)

And Doug, thank you for clarifying i'm no US resident however :)

Hopefully you will be able to come up with some offspring pictures Shawn.
Still didn't see pictures of other couples, always curious how variable they turn out to be.

Do you know if and what the difference is between the buena esperanza and punta clara morph?
Since they are coming in as both, so it seems.
 
#40 ·
Yes, buena esperanza is available for a while over here in Europe.
But the ones i've seen never had the deep red or purple coloration like the ones from the latest import.
I've seen a phot reportage by stemcellular on punta clara:
Oophaga pumilio - Punta Clara pictures by stemcellular - Photobucket

And a stream referring to the same looking frogs as Darkland- Tierra oscura.
Peninsula Aguacate (Tierra Oscura) - Oophaga Pumilio Dark Land Esperanza | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Perhaps another morph going under double names?
I know there are more being named differently, depending on who is cited on the names.
 
#44 · (Edited)
Not exactly Sean, and Adam....but....the exporter called them Buena Esperanza....as did the importer.

Using Chris Vd Lingen's morph guide, most would say the World's authority on pumilio morph's, he does list Buena Esperanza as a morph type and Punta Clara both in the Tierra Oscura region.

What Ray and I saw in the Boca's as Punta Clara look exactly like the frogs we have here now, and have been in Europe for a while.

And NO, esperanza were first and only imported through Strictly Feb 2012. Unless someone has some documentation otherwise, that remains the only currently know proper importation.

Best practice is to not rename them if the exporter is labeling them first, as they have feet on the ground. We dont.
 
#48 ·
If there was importation of Buena esperanza then it didnt happen through Strictly [who I understand has a pretty exclusive deal with the exporter in Panama] , and it didnt happen with the knowledge of anyone I know...

Aint saying it isnt possible...just that if it did happen...they've been hidden or lost.

My animals have been out of QT for 2 weeks and they literally laid eggs D1 in their permanent enclosure.

Shawn
 
#49 ·
Just a few years ago (starting in 2004?) several importers would directly import from the exporter, SR included. It has just been the past couple of years that this has changed and SR is the only one in the US currently importing pums from the exporter in Panama.

Does anyone know where the stock of esperanza floating around before this Feb came from? Perhaps a shipment was sent to Europe and some animals (farmed or CB) made their way to the US from that? Since 2004 it has been much easier to obtain legal stock of pums out of Panama then smuggle out stock, so it it likely any stocked in Europe at this time came from legal means.

Good to hear you have having success with them. This is certainly a variety I hope to pick up within the next year.
 
#54 ·
Then "everyone" can shoot me a pm and this thread can remain what for what I set it out to be! A simple thread displaying 2012 esperanza and for fellow members to see and admire. Not a thread for a kid to once again come onto,hijack and end.
 
#55 ·
I'm sorry, I'm a little confused. How is Blue pumilios question off subject? We are trying to get to the bottom of what really came in and you have esperenzas that came in before this last shipment. This seems like a reasonable question to me. If you have nothing to hide why not post it? Finding out what we really have in the hobby is important and you can help us with that. Sorry if I'm stepping on your toes but I'm just really curious about where and when you got your esperenzas. Please don't get upset. Just a simple question.
 
#56 ·
Then blue pumilio needs to further conduct his investigations and ask the correct source who brought them in. Seems hes amazing at diging up valuable info...then he can find and question tge correct source which I am in no right to just throw out here onto this thread.

Dont worry, youre not stepping on anyones toes. I can care less bud
 
#67 ·
Very honestly simple adam.

Thus person offered me these,along with a few other frogs Im not sure are in the hobby or have been(pumilio) and I purchased them then bred them fir a while now. Not throwing any names as unlike a few here, being a rat isnt what I signed up to db for....but this same guy brought in some moonshines and histos with this shipment....If you know who Im talking about great, if not.... You can always request the services if "Justin P.I." dbs finest
 
#73 ·
Let's see who has imported histros:

2006:
4 from Denmark by a P. T.

2007:
14 from Georgia (the country), by a R. N.

2008:
12 from Georgia (the country), by a R.N. .
41 from Georgia (the country), by a R. N.

2009:
10 from Germany by a R. N.
42 from Georgia (the country), by a R. N.
23 From Germany by a B. P.

Pumilio imports (I left out famed critters and a few others, concentrated on Europe):


2004:
1 from Canada by a M.B.

2005:
7 from the Czech Republic by a R.N.
28 from the Czech Republic by a R.N.

2006:
3 from Canada by M.B.

2007:
7 from Czech Republic by a M.B.
24 from Germany by a R.N.
2 from Switzerland by a E.S.

2008:
4 from Canada by M.B.
7 from Germany by a S.S.
22 from Georgia (the country), by a R.N.
24 from Georgia (the country), by a R.N.
24 from Georgia (the country), by a R.N.

2010:
25 from Netherlands by a unknown

Almost all of these were supplied by a S.H. who lives in Denmark or Germany (but frequently ships from Georgia).

So, who was it?
 
#74 · (Edited)
Histos and moonshines? Man come on this isnt our first rodeo. I can understand you not wanting to *rat* someone out, but when other questions are asked and you refuse to answer them, or tell people to *call you, to get your side of the story, instead of answering them in the thread where the questions are actually being asked...I also do not really know what to think, after basically refusing to answer said question on how and where you got them, now all of a sudden you bought them from some guy,and then tried to claim ignorance about it all......Dude. Really.
 
#75 ·
By no means do I presume to tell another person what should or should not bother them. However, this is hardly the place for an inquisition. Either Sidney did or did not do something illegal. If he did then he is either unaware of or apathetic toward the law that was broken. Telling him he did something wrong is not going to get anyone anywhere. It will not resolve an issue and it will not change anyone's mind. If it is that big a deal for you (again, I'm not one to tell you if it should or should not be) then contact USFWS and inform them that you have reason to believe someone has suspect frogs. My understanding is Sidney ships a lot - his address should not be hard to find. Otherwise, let's get off it and move on.

Other than some high variability I dont see how these frogs are much different from escudo. Some look like blue jeans, some look like cauchero, some look like escudo, but this isn't a frog that looks much different from anything else I've seen. And it comes without site data (even in this thread I see people mentioning that they LOOK like Esperanza pumilio, but I have yet to see sufficient evidence to suggest that they're anything other than visually identified frogs). And in combination with some of the whisperings I've heard about other frogs from the same import being collected from sites (or at least called pumilio from places) that may be suspect, I kind of figure this is a frog I'll stay away from, beautiful as it may be.
 
#76 ·
First, I do think this is the place for such a thread. This information doesn't need to apply specifically to Sidney, but anyone interested in obtaining highly suspect frogs. Sidney would have never been mentioned if he didn't bring these animals up on these very forums. When someone very publically claims to have such frogs, as a public group, they should be discussed. We can take Sidney's name out of it, and the same circumstances still apply. I guess it's not me that is telling another person if something should bother them, but the law. The law is built in such a way that if you break it, it should bother you. Because the actions of others doing things illegally impacts us (ie, Hank Molt is direct cause of the ESA), we are all effected. As for contacting USFWS, I would think that someone calling themselves out publically should be enough. If the frogs exist, USFWS will hear about them. After all, you did.

Second, the Feb. 2012 Panama-USA shipment of this morph is in no ways legally suspect, there is no legal reason to avoid it. We are talking about import of this variety before this period.
 
#77 ·
I don’t post much and I talk regularly with many of the “old timers” outside of dendrobaord but it seems every time i come on here lately there is nothing but mud throwing going on. It’s sad to me to see a board that could be so very helpful to many new hobbyists being degraded down to a pissing match much like this thread has turned out to be.... i hope it gets locked as this does nothing for any of us.
 
#78 ·
As long as there is someone openly supporting smuggling or making significant faux and repeative statements, I don't see that it as a pissing, but rather presenting the public (via a forum) a counterbalance of what many would consider inappropriate or misleading posts. This is not a debate of how to keep a frog or who has the coolest/rarest frogs. I would consider that a pissing match.
 
#80 ·
It comes down to being able to TRUST who you are BUYING from, as always. If there is a SHADOW of a DOUBT -- some sketchiness, something 'ambiguous -- as it relates to the Law or the Seller in anyway(an example? a person dodging questions seems awfully familiar), avoid them at all costs. It's NOT worth it, it WILL bite you in the butt.

People cutting corners, people playing up the "Ignorance is Bliss" dumbfounded mentality really cannot hold up a wick of a CANDLE to a ``GOD`` like MARK PEPPER of UNDERSTORY ENTERPRISES and his CONSERVATION efforts. Can't compete for the life of them. Are not good for the hobby and frankly, are NOT desired here at all....

Know who you're buying from people, ask as many questions as you can...and if possible, check more than one source/venue for information....
 
#92 ·
Jake...
Fair enough. I misread into your original post a bit. Of course, your opinion is not being questioned whether it is correct. It sounded as if you were inferring that the esperanzas were suspect because they look just like the morphs you listed.

As for the Salt Creeks, I haven't heard this before. The village of Salt Creek is an indigenous settlement, but is not part of the Ngobe-Bugle Comarca (reservation) and (i believe) has no more restrictions than any other land in the area. And beyond this, there is plenty land in the Salt Creek area that is outside of the ngobe village. It is perfectly plausible that they were collected outside of the village, but yet again, we don't know for sure. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any reason to believe these frogs were illegally collected and exported from Panama.

Kevin
 
#100 ·
No worries, and no offense taken. I don't know enough about environmental law to comment further. I can, however, say that I saw some correspondence between a friend and one of the "big guys" mention the questionable legality of the Salt Creeks.... Like Adam I'm not suggesting that they ARE illegal, but merely entertaining the possibility that they may be. It is plausible that they were collected outside the village. But it's also possible they were collected in or very near the village.... Without site data we can't know. Perhaps there is a reason many exporters still refuse (or at the very least don't put the effort) to provide specific site data.

seriously?

So this is the new market...

Really ... this is what we want the hobby to turn into?

How much..who has the in.. I want I want I want....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Sorry but give me real and trustworthy collection data.... site not sight.. not brought in by money in their eyes.. or dazzled by the sirens song. Not taking the word of the importer or exporter who is only concerned with money. Sorry but this import is dubious at best. No real questions have been answered... not one.. by anyone. And the guy in charge... well sorry if we are all skeptical about his intentions. He refuses to answer to anything about knowingly buying smuggled frogs. Unless there is more substantial proof of what has transpired I think many are going to be very skeptical of the whole thing because of that one fact alone. Yeah legal import...sure. Site specific, documented, the real deal..... ????

We can do this. We can have site specific verifiable frogs if we want.. We can have conservation and acquire what we want.... but WE have to stick together. WE have to set the rules. WE as a group have to demand change.

We hold our own destiny... we at some point have to say no. WE at some point have to ask for more.

I was hoping for more from this import. I was hoping that those with more experience and skill than I would provide CB frogs I could get behind. All I have seen though is defensive indifference.. a blind eye if you will... to what WE as a hobby, or whatever we are at this point , demonize.

I have said my peace.. dont take it the wrong way. I would love to work with these and many other species, locales, frogs... etc. But I, at this point, cant. Not when I see it dividing what we all really want. Not when I see it as being tarnished by misinformation or veiled information.

Unfortunately I feel that I am the minority opinion at this point.
Well said. I was tempted to post something similar, but work got in the way.... You're right. WE have the opportunity to determine the course of our hobby. But many are choosing not to concern themselves with site specific frogs, exporters that support conservation efforts, or even the legality of frogs. I find it disappointing that some of the well-founded members of the hobby choose to support the practices seen here, and even encourage newer hobbyists to buy these frogs. This does not necessarily pertain exclusively to this import either. There are "big guys" who still choose to work with mysteriosus. There are a huge number of imports who have had "big guys" act as middle men for non-site-specific and legally suspect frogs. It's disappointing.

Find me an exporter who's willing to provide detailed site data on where the frogs were collected (find me an exporter who's willing to collect his/her own frogs) and I'll consider a heavier pursuit of pumilio in the future.
 
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