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ideas for new feeders

16K views 73 replies 23 participants last post by  radiata 
#1 ·
does anybody know of any new feeders that are good for not just regular dart frogs, but thumbnails as well, got springtails, isopods and melangaster FF's going currently

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#6 ·
The insects I culture are : aphids, wich I feed at least weekly, all frogs eat them. Same goes for greenbugs (Schizaphis graminum). These are probably the thumbnails favorites.

Also 3 types of ff's : Hydei, Melanogaster and Melanogaster "Vestigial".
And 2 kinds of Isopods : Trichorhina tomentosa and porecllionides pruinosus (juveniles for all and terribilis also gets adults). I have more types of isopods in the tanks, but I do not culture them.

Thermobia domestica is also a very wanted insect for all of my frogs! Unfortunatly I don't have allot of acces to these,I mostly get these from Johanovic. I think I will setup up a culture in the near future so I also can feed these on a weekly base.

Hope this helps in your search for more feeders to culture yourself.
 
#13 ·
No, but they are not so easy to collect and transfer from an older to new culture. I use the same method that I use for the aphids : https://youtu.be/rV_nfzYgrIE

Can you share some info on Schizaphis graminum? How are they differ from pea aphids? How are they cultured? Where did you get them from? Thanks.
I think these pictures show the differenc. Again, I use the same method as I use to get the peas to sprout. Only difference is that I let the peas soak for 12hours and the wheat only soaks for an hour. I got them from a fellow frog enthousiast who has been way longer in the hobby than me.

This is what a greenbug culture looks like after 4 days of enting. They yet have to explode. :


Same age aphid culture :


The wheat I use for the greenbugs :

The peas for the aphids :


Cheers.
 
#10 ·
I'm actually interested in this topic because I'm curious if there is a more efficient feeder insect to culture. I don't think the probability of finding one is high, but that's not a reason to cease exploration and experimentation. I've seen some extremely small crickets in my area that I've always wanted to attempt culturing, but I haven't had time unfortunately. With all the insect species out there, i suspect someone will stumble on something at some point.

Is love to hear about anything else that has been tried.
 
#12 ·
C'mon...

It takes, what, 10 minutes a week to set up cxs for a whole room full of frogs. Ten whole minutes! Don't you think it is worth tens of hours of research, and investigation into culturing equipment, and purchase of that equipment, and new media mixes, and identification of potential feeder species, and research into their breeding cycles, and studies of nutritional profiles*, and testing these prey on a range of captive Dendrobatids to cut that down to eight or even seven minutes? Imagine the possibilities!!




Ahem...

*https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...s=1&q=nutritional+content+of+drosophila&btnG=

Holy cow, do we humans have a handle on Drosophila.

:)
 
#15 ·
Saying there is no better alternative than fruit flies seems silly. That means no improvements could ever be made. It is a great feeder but all options will have plus and minus. The only reason we use fruit flies is because that was chosen a century ago for genetics research so husbandry was nailed down. If someone chose a different small insect we would have all those years of research to support that instead. Someone has to try new things or we will never advance.
A lot of developmental biology is done in zebrafish. This is because there is a ton of existing literature in developmental biology in zebrafish. Why was the zebrafish chosen? It was the cheapest fish at the pet store on the first day they planned the first study. Is it the best model animal? No. But no one wants to do the leg work to get a better one set up.
The fruit fly has tons of advantages but is not the best. An ideal feeder would not climb glass. (We all work hard to fruit fly proof our tops). An ideal feeder would be more nutritious or could be guttloaded so it would not always need dusting.
Yes 10 minutes a week is not much work, but that husbandry has been refined a lot over time. We have premade media etc that didn’t exist at the start of FF culturing. I remember using AGAR. So if a feeder is better in one way (like no escapees) but husbandry isn’t refined, it shouldn’t be discouraged.
 
#18 ·
The biggest advantage imo is the cultures last a lot longer than aphid cultures. Aphids or the peaplant die faster. Also the greenbugs are allot smaller, for feeding juveniles this is also a big advantage. I find them hunting in the weath plants all the time. They are able to eat adult and joung greenbugs.

I hope you are able to get your hands on them. I wish I could help,butI think this will be expensive and not very easy to ship overseas...

Don't forget the other insect I mentioned are also very good. I am always searching for as many insects possible to feed my frogs. Variaty is important imo.

I hope to get to know some other interesting insects I havn't heard of before in this topic.
 
#20 ·
No other insect could ever be a staple?! I’m not saying ff are a bad staple but to blanket claim that out of millions of species of insect only this will work is ludacris. Yes we all use or should use ff, but we shouldn’t discourage anyone from trying to culture other insects. It may start out as a lot of work but new refined techniques and methods come from trying new things. I remember when standard advice for darts was to only give them fresh air when you pop the Tupperware to feed. I mean there are what 40-50 species of regularly cultured insects in this hobby? That’s hardly a fraction of a fraction of a percent that people have even looked at. Do you really hope no one ever tries anything new?
 
#21 ·
Nobody is preventing anyone from trying anything new.

When someone comes up with a better alternative to Fruit Flies - it'll get posted here and FB immediately.

In the meantime, the blanket statement from me is "If you are unwilling or unable to responsibly and regularly culture Fruit flies, then this hobby and animal is not for you"

There is no shame in owning a goldfish...
 
#22 ·
Cap'n, you're kinda listing to port on this one.

No one ever said there is no insect in the world that fits into this discussion. We're talking about insects that currently exist in the hobby, or even are currently produced in captivity. And of every single one of those, FFs come out on top.

Also: the question was asked by someone who was a little into darts in the (not so recent) past, and who now is really just getting their bearings again. (Gavin, you're asking some good questions! Thank you!:)). Philsuma's advice is the best advice to give in such a situation. That's what we're here for: good advice.

I do hope you prove him (and me -- because I agree -- and most hobbyists, I think) wrong by coming up with some practical alternative. Until then, I hope people who are looking for feeding advice accept that there is no more reliable, healthy, safe, easy, proven food source for adult dart frogs than dusted fruit flies.
 
#23 ·
Folks, I'm not going to respond to individual posts in this thread because it's moved to the realm of pointlessness.

I'll make one post (because I'm not interested in hi-jacking this thread) to ask everyone to look at ourselves. We just pushed a thread asking the community about new feeder insects into a flame war full of posts with incredulity and snark.

Maybe this is why people lurk here for years and never join or post anything.
 
#37 ·
Easiest way of trying to obtain them cheaply is growing some pea plants outside, decent chance they'll get colonized during spring or summer.
 
#28 ·
I actually regularly ponder the potentiality of feeders somewhere the galaxy of insects on the planet.

Yes I am grateful to our founding fruitfly fathers and the productivity and reliability of drosophila.

But I wouldnt mind the extra work, if thats what it took, if another equitable subject was discovered and its husbandry developed, where the culture media used wasnt so microbially fecund. I admit it.

I realize that methylparaben is heavily data'd but if I had a choice to not have it in every fly my guys eat, I admit I would like that too.
 
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#29 ·
i guess i really opened up a debate here, I'm not asking simply to satisfy some anthropomorphic desire to complicate their diet, I realize that fruit flies will likely be the standard staple for years to come. I only ask because i think darts might benefit from a more varied diet and that there could be something better out there. We should all look to improve and diversify the hobby. I think more feeders makes the whole process more fun. thanks for the pea aphids, I hadn't heard of that before.

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#30 ·
I find it weird that there is only a hand full of people that actualy gaves examples of insects. I hope to get to know some more insects beeing cultured for our frogs and hopefully try to culture some for myself.
I would be shokked if most of the frogs in captivity only got flies and springtails and supplments? Or is this me wishfull thinking?

Johanovic told me a month or 2 aggo that he was culturing something "new to me" and if he had a few culutures going I could start one for myself. But I can't rember the name correct, so I also can't translate... :D When I find out, I will post the name here aswell.


In 2-3 weeks I am also going to start just a few cultures of Beanbeetles, Thermobia domestica and also Tribolium castaneum(only for their larvae).

I can try and make a topic of "how to culture"... If this would be usefull?
 
#36 · (Edited)
The things I currently cultivate for my frogs:

-3 species of springtails (tropical white, a very small temperate silver and a temperate green species)
-2 species of fruit flies (2 Drosphila melanogaster variaties, being vestigious and flightles and Drosphila hydei)
-3 species of isopods (Trichorhina tomentosa, orange porcellionides pruinosus and tropical brown)
-Firebrats
-Pea Aphids
-A wax moth species that is related to Achroia grisella
-Bean beetles, although I will likely abandon this in the future as my frogs are not too fond of them so far and they tend to escape easily.
-Temperate terrestrial amphipods (this is what Tijl is reffering to I believe). The culture has recently crashed due to me still figuring out their preferred food source, but I think almost have them figured out and will retry soon enough.

I have cultivated grain weevils, buffalo worms and Alphitobius diaperinus in the past, but gave them up for several reasons.

I also feed large amounts of meadow plankton in summer, and I'm looking to try and cultivate a common globular springtail that is always present in my sweepings (which I believe is Sminthurus viridis) in the future. Given that the diet of this springtail is vastly different from detritivorous springtails I expect the nutritional value to be different as well.

Edit: should also mention that I intend to look into termites, not as a main feeder but more as a side hobby that occasionally can provide a good snack for the frogs.
 
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#34 · (Edited)
I'll have a go at suggesting an actual prey insect: subterranean termites. My first culture went bonkers- the frogs loved them and then it crashed. I'm working on a second go. They are fatty and not appropriate for general feeding. But they do engendered a comical feeding response from the terribs, and seem to be useful for bringing that tinct that lost the war of sexual maturity back to fighting weight.
I also have a dubia roach colony (a remnant of the tarantula days and a backup for my daughters growing Therasophid mania- I wonder where she got that from?). The nymphs are good for tree frogs and I spend a good amount of time on feeders for my larger frogs. I'm always looking for some new species that are in the housefly to cricket size range. My cricket production is nearly as involved as my FF dept. But they are feeders with some very problematic issues. I wish there was something of that size that was as easy to raise as fruit flies.
 
#35 ·
... But they do engendered a comical feeding response from the terribs, ...
One of my sub-adult blackfoots attacked mist today.

Picture a frog looking up and aggressively snapping repeatedly at a fine mist while moving in circles reminiscent of a dog chasing its tail.

One of my top herpetocultural moments of all time. :D

(He was pretty embarrassed afterwards and pretended nothing happened)
 
#39 ·
I can't believe how emotionally invested some people are in fruit flies as the best feeder. Some great alternative micro feeders I don't see mentioned here are.

Compsodes schwarzi and the "little kenyan burrowing roach", these micro roaches about the same size as dwarf isopods but much faster moving and so can trigger a stronger feeding response, they can fly but tend not to and are easy to produce in large numbers although still quite hard to find for sale depending on where you're based. The kenyan burrowing roach is a bit larger and closer to grey isopods in adult size but easier to obtain, it's exact species has not yet been identified and is the subject of ongoing debate.
both can be cultured the same way you would isopods and in some cases even alongside isopods in the same culture.

Pogonognathellus flavescens / longicornis These "giant" temperate springtails are larger than micro crickets when fully grown and can also be easily cultured in very large numbers. They used to be more readily available
but for some reason I rarely see cultures for sale anymore, I think this might be because they have a slightly longer life cycle and people struggled attempting to culture them under the same conditions as tropical whites while in my experience these do best when kept much drier. They look and behave exactly like micro crickets but don't feed on plants and are a great addition to the cleanup crew. I culture mine on a few cm of shredded oak, beech, alder and willow leaf litter and feed them oyster mushrooms. I can't emphasize enough that keeping them much, much drier than the standard tropical springs is the key to a thriving culture, I don't really understand why and similarly I have never had much luck culturing them on anything other than leaf litter
I will actually try and get some videos of mine and make a thread about these in the next few weeks.

Dalotia coriaria is a tiny elongated predatory rove beetle about 4-5mm long that is sometimes used as a biological control for gungus gnats in greenhouses and is therefore fairly easily to obtain. Development time from egg to adult has been documented to be 11 to 12 days at 86º F (30º C). They can and will reproduce in tropical vivariums and may be useful predators of tiny slugs and nematodes. Be aware that they will also prey on other members of your cleanup crew, especially springtails. You can culture them as you would isopods but feed protein rich dry foods like dog buiscits or chicken feed which must be kept dry to avoid mould.


I like the fact that all of these can pretty much be set up in a large plastic container and maintained as a long term culture without having to constantly start new cultures. They can also be gutloaded, in my opinion are easier to harvest and feed than fruit flies without escapes and do not have as much potential to become a nuisance in the house.
I'm not questioning fruit flies utility as a feeder at all but I would bet every single penny I have that somewhere out there among the approximately 1 MILLION identified species of insects and estimated 2 - 30 MILLION undescribed species, there is a better feeder than fruit flies waiting to be discovered.
I think that the hunt for new viable feeders for the hobby is extremely worthwhile and hope there are some more contributions to this thread.
 
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