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Old 02-14-2012, 05:51 AM
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Default LED's And The Box Of Weeds

I do believe that these are the first commercial modules that I've seen that are directed towards the freshwater market, rather than the reef aquarium side of things.

Kessil unveiling A150W Amazon Sun daylight version

While I'd dearly love to use a pair of Maxspect Mazarra P-series ( Maxspect Mazarra P Series LED Lighting | CoralVue ) for a 36 X 18 X 36 display vivarium that I've been slowing building and plotting for most of the last year, these new properly spectrum'd Kessil light cannons are looking to be much more budgetarily friendly and practical.
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Old 02-15-2012, 06:05 AM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

I'm offering LED units custom built for vivaria units....not ready to do larg scale production yet but I'm hoping to get there
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:45 AM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by chin_monster View Post
I do believe that these are the first commercial modules that I've seen that are directed towards the freshwater market, rather than the reef aquarium side of things.

Kessil unveiling A150W Amazon Sun daylight version

While I'd dearly love to use a pair of Maxspect Mazarra P-series ( Maxspect Mazarra P Series LED Lighting | CoralVue ) for a 36 X 18 X 36 display vivarium that I've been slowing building and plotting for most of the last year, these new properly spectrum'd Kessil light cannons are looking to be much more budgetarily friendly and practical.
I disagree - TMC (The Marine Centre) have been selling LED units for freshwater tanks / plants for a while now (AquaRay GroBeam 500 and 1000 ND units).

I have two units, and I know two other members on this board who use them to good effect too.
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

I dont understand how they can sell these lights without telling much light they put out.
The most valuable info is the lumen/Watt ratio (as long as the light colour is acceptable).
Without that its impossible to tell how effective and good a fixture/light is.
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Old 02-15-2012, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

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Originally Posted by mitcholito View Post
I dont understand how they can sell these lights without telling much light they put out.
The most valuable info is the lumen/Watt ratio (as long as the light colour is acceptable).
Without that its impossible to tell how effective and good a fixture/light is.
Because most people do not understand or care what the difference is.
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:53 AM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

same reason they get away with charging the prices they do

being the LED fanatic that I am....I went ahead and found that info for you..

http://www.kessil.com/products/a150_...rium_light.php


they are all blue heavy (even the amazon sun is lacking in reds) and not any good for non-aquatic purposes imho. the H150 grow lights are a bit better...but even then they are designed for growing so its too red heavy for our uses.

The fact that Kessil uses self-branded LEDs and purposely does not give out lumen or spec-sheets on them is HIGHLY questionable and certainly raises red flags to me

EDIT: I have contacted them for their spec sheets and lumen information. Lets see what they say...

Last edited by EvilLost; 02-16-2012 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:59 PM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

Quote:
The fact that Kessil uses self-branded LEDs and purposely does not give out lumen or spec-sheets on them is HIGHLY questionable and certainly raises red flags to me
Does the same for me. But its very common. I'm a bit surprised that the reef/salt water community dont react to this more than they do. They are otherwise the ones that leads the way when it comes to light and lighting.

Quote:
I have contacted them for their spec sheets and lumen information. Lets see what they say...
Perfect..will be interesting to se what they say
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Old 02-18-2012, 07:00 AM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

My letter to them: (I felt like I was pretty direct about the information requested wasn't I?)

Hello,

I was interested in your growlight LEDs. Your website has some minor information on the color spectrums, but you give no information on the LEDs, lumen, or PAR readings. I was also unable to find any spec/cut sheets.

Can you please either direct me to this data or forward it to me? Particularly I am interested in your growlights, but if you could send me the info regarding your aquarium lights as well that would be helpful.

Thank you,

Mani Arabi


This was the response:

Hi Mani,

All the information we have is published on our website. Can you tell us a bit more on what you are doing and why you need the optical spec info so we can figure out how to help you.

LED's performance is spectrum specific, parameter's for traditional lighting does not make too much sense for LED sometimes.


LoL? I am waiting on a follow up from that still....
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:26 AM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

Very strange answer IMO. Why not just present the facts for people in a straight forward manner instead of hiding and concealing it?
To me it sounds like the specs is not that impressive when they do like this.
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gex23 View Post
I disagree - TMC (The Marine Centre) have been selling LED units for freshwater tanks / plants for a while now (AquaRay GroBeam 500 and 1000 ND units).

I have two units, and I know two other members on this board who use them to good effect too.

Just wanted to +1 to the TMC Grobeam they have been available for at least a year and a half and I've been using them for that long to great results.

I'm not sure why you would want to know the Lumens for a Given LED as they are not really comparable to Incandescent bulbs as I understand it the Lumens is the sum of all light that's given off by a bulb in ALL directions. So LED's will always look duller to our eyes than the traditional bulbs we use. What you should be looking at is the Spectrum and the PAR rating (particularly the PUR) and the angle of the lenses. I have never bothered with Lumen/Lumens for LED's.

Of course I could be wrong!

Last edited by Johno2090; 02-19-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:05 AM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

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Originally Posted by Johno2090 View Post
Just wanted to +1 to the TMC Grobeam they have been available for at least a year and a half and I've been using them for that long to great results.

I'm not sure why you would want to know the Lumens for a Given LED as they are not really comparable to Incandescent bulbs as I understand it the Lumens is the sum of all light that's given off by a bulb in ALL directions. So LED's will always look duller to our eyes than the traditional bulbs we use. What you should be looking at is the Spectrum and the PAR rating (particularly the PUR) and the angle of the lenses. I have never bothered with Lumen/Lumens for LED's.

Of course I could be wrong!
Lumen readings are EXTREMELY important. A "PAR" reading is, in essence, an "applied lumen reading" in the sense that it is the power of the lumens at the point you are getting the PAR reading.

Your understanding of lumen measurements is correct. However, this does not make the data useless. Although standard lights are measured in lumens in "all directions" we direct that light via hoods/reflectors and so most of it goes where we want it to.

LEDs on the other hand use focus lenses which makes it MUCH more direct and easy to calculate where your lumens are going. The reason I want LED lumen ratings is so that I can compare their LEDs used to other LEDs. However, I can also compare the luminosity of LEDs to "classic" bulbs....it won't be exact, but I can still get a strong estimate of the comparative power of the lights.

Since most LEDs on the market are low output, I believe that mitcholito is correct and this company seems to be trying to hide their actual specs.


Most importantly, I'm not concerned with what it looks like to us....I just do the math.

EDIT: why do you care about the lens angle if you don't care about lumens? thats the only reason you really need it...? am i missing something?
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:19 PM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

I may be going on a tangent here, but since lamps are important for a vivarium, I'd like to clarify on PAR.

If you are using the lamps primarily for growing plants, PAR reading is a lot more important and useful value than Lumen, Lux, or antiquated foot candle values.

PAR is photosynthetically active radiation, quantified as Ámol photons/m2/second, which is a measure of the photosynthetic photon flux (area) density, or PPFD. Plant biologists use PPFD or micro einstein values and not lumens.

Since lux or lumen values are offered by lamp manufacturers for an easy comparison of lamps along with CRI values, people continue to use them to compare lamps. However, more recently, reefers and FW planted tank hobbyists are using a PAR meter to measure the intensity of their light at various depths of a tank. The PAR values can explain why some plants are growing more vertically than spreading horizontally under seemingly very similar tank conditions in fresh water tanks, or why some SPS coral is browning up instead of coloring up in a new tank/a different part of a tank. I don't know how valuable a PAR value (or an expensive PAR meter) would be in an ordinary vivarium situation, but for those who like to dabble with the coloration of bromeliads or flowering of orchids, it may be useful.

LED's are getting more and more popular. I've seen some Japanese FW planted tanks lit by LED lamps. While reef tanks need very high intensity, I find that FW planted tanks and vivariums use much less light intensity than reef tanks. While "most LEDs on the market are low output", wouldn't a collection of them be adequate for a vivarium, provided its color temp and CRI value are appropriate?
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomoko Schum View Post
I may be going on a tangent here, but since lamps are important for a vivarium, I'd like to clarify on PAR.

If you are using the lamps primarily for growing plants, PAR reading is a lot more important and useful value than Lumen, Lux, or antiquated foot candle values.

PAR is photosynthetically active radiation, quantified as Ámol photons/m2/second, which is a measure of the photosynthetic photon flux (area) density, or PPFD. Plant biologists use PPFD or micro einstein values and not lumens.

Since lux or lumen values are offered by lamp manufacturers for an easy comparison of lamps along with CRI values, people continue to use them to compare lamps. However, more recently, reefers and FW planted tank hobbyists are using a PAR meter to measure the intensity of their light at various depths of a tank. The PAR values can explain why some plants are growing more vertically than spreading horizontally under seemingly very similar tank conditions in fresh water tanks, or why some SPS coral is browning up instead of coloring up in a new tank/a different part of a tank. I don't know how valuable a PAR value (or an expensive PAR meter) would be in an ordinary vivarium situation, but for those who like to dabble with the coloration of bromeliads or flowering of orchids, it may be useful.

LED's are getting more and more popular. I've seen some Japanese FW planted tanks lit by LED lamps. While reef tanks need very high intensity, I find that FW planted tanks and vivariums use much less light intensity than reef tanks. While "most LEDs on the market are low output", wouldn't a collection of them be adequate for a vivarium, provided its color temp and CRI value are appropriate?
Two great points...

1) You are entirely correct about PAR readings. However, as an engineer, lumen readings are actually more important to me. Where looking at a pre-existing light unit and determining how well it will grow in your setup, the PAR readings are more important because in a sense they "include" the lumen values.

On the other hand, when looking at pure lumen values you ALSO have to look at the spectral distribution of the light in question...because it is the combination of these two that give you PAR values. In other words, lumens and spectral graphs interest me more because I can strongly predict PAR values from these, but I also get a lot of other valuable comparative information as well.

Lastly, the reason lumen ratings are so important is because they are a measurement of light output "at the source", whereas PAR readings are at the "receiving point". PAR readings could only be accurately compared if they are from the same distance/point, so this must also be considered when comparing different manufacturer's data.



2) In regards to using a lot of low powered LEDs, sure you can do that. But it won't save you anything. In order to generate the same amount of light, you will end up using the same amount of power most of the time. In my experiences, the CRI and color temp is not where we want with these low output LEDs most of the time.

There are modern high output LEDs that function great for our purposes. I am offering the units custom built and working on setting up a line of affordable pre-built units. The CREE XM-L are incredibly bright with a great spectrum, and even the older model XP-G are quite powerful.

Last edited by EvilLost; 02-19-2012 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: LED's And The Box Of Weeds

Derailing slightly but continuing on the topic of LEDs...

Correct me if I'm wrong, just trying to understand myself, but the goal of artificial lighting for plant growth is to match the peak absorption wavelengths chlorophyll a and b, isn't it? Secondary to having light that looks good. So, wouldn't you want LEDs which produce spectrums which match chlorophyll absorption with a high flux per watt rating?

It looks like a mix of the CREE 5000K-8300K and 2600K-3700K XM-L LEDs would pretty closely match the spectrum requirements of plants. They're also rated at 100 lumens per watt, which seems pretty darn good though I admittedly haven't compared many LEDs yet.

Again, I'm mostly just trying to clarify what people are looking for in LEDs for my own understanding.

Some thoughts,
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by parkanz2 View Post
Derailing slightly but continuing on the topic of LEDs...

Correct me if I'm wrong, just trying to understand myself, but the goal of artificial lighting for plant growth is to match the peak absorption wavelengths chlorophyll a and b, isn't it? Secondary to having light that looks good. So, wouldn't you want LEDs which produce spectrums which match chlorophyll absorption with a high flux per watt rating?

It looks like a mix of the CREE 5000K-8300K and 2600K-3700K XM-L LEDs would pretty closely match the spectrum requirements of plants. They're also rated at 100 lumens per watt, which seems pretty darn good though I admittedly haven't compared many LEDs yet.

Again, I'm mostly just trying to clarify what people are looking for in LEDs for my own understanding.

Some thoughts,
Max

Yep exactly. And those are exactly the LEDs that I use in my custom LED units. The CREE XM-L are the highest output LEDs that I have found atm....the prior generation XP-G still put out good enough light to be viable, but most other models/brands end up putting out too little light on their own, and if you combine then you end up using just as much power as Tx bulbs.

I personally find the 6500K color to be the most pleasurable, but it does vary somewhat with personal preference. For purely ideal plant growth I believe that the warmer lights should be included, prob a ratio of like 2.5:1 6500K:3000K LEDs would be best for plant growth (I am still experimenting here...haven't had enough time for viable results). For my *personal* setups, I use a much higher ratio 4:1 of 6500:3000 because I personally really dislike warm colored light.

I am aware that this personal aesthetic choice impacts my plants slightly negatively, but I feel that my plants are mostly foliage and grow fast enough anyway that I don't really need the extra oomph. This is one reason LED units are great.
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