Has anyone seen what 'www.dartfrog.co.uk' is selling?

[Shockfrog]

confiscated?? the green and red vicentei and arboreus were allready in europe at the time this add was put on the website, just as some Dendrobates minutes. The mysteriosus also wouldn't be difficult to get your hands on as these are breeding like rabbits in europe.

Remco

These frogs all came fro mthe Netherlands, the Dutch and Germans have been keeping Vivariums long before anyone else, hence why there so bad ass. Dont kow too much about the legallity, but there are some breeding companis in the Netherlands that have been about for a very long time.

http://www.kwekerijrana.nl/

http://www.vivaria.nl/

i know he gets most his frogs from these guys, ill be going there myself once i get my viv up and running.

i didn't mean that the frogs definately arent smuggled i wouldnt really know about that anyway, i just meant that the people who run dartfrog are decent chaps and im sure they arent directly involved in any criminal activity.

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by rmelancon

There are many more dart frog smugglers overseas than in the US. Less stringent border controls are one reason.

May I mention that a lot of flights are via american airports and because of 9/11 all lugage has to get out of the plane ..controlled by you guys...and back in. So the lugage will be checked for a minimum of three times. When it get in..in the states and on arrival in europe. Flights from Surinam, Colombia and Peru are double checked and you know why. So i don't know why you have that idea of less stringent border controls Rob??? Have you ever travelled to central or south america? or to Europe the last few years?

Your other point of more frogsmugglers is also strange...based on what? Aren't there more frogkeepers in the us then in europe? and if there are more keepers there is more chance to sell illegal frogs and therefore interesting for smugglers. I don't know if you know how many frogkeepers there are in the Netherlands and Germany? My guess for the Netherlands is between 1000 - 1500 people. Our total population is 16 million. I think there will be around 10.000 frogkeepers in Germany but that's a guess but i don't think the guess isn't bad. Total population of Germany is 84 million people.
Total population of the usa is 290 million people....so how many frogkeepers will be there? Maybe i am worng with this conclusion but the way you point to the europeans is in my opinion a little bit too easy.

i think its because there have been dartfroggers in europe for longer than in the usa and in europe and the uk we can get hold of some of the rarer frogs a lot easier and a lot of these are offspring from frogs which were smuggled before 9/11 happened and the tighter airport security came in and these smuggled frogs have bred and are now available to private buyers so they may well have started off smuggled but they are now 3rd 4th and 5th generation CB offspring probably even further than that but these captives may in the future play an important part if they ever need to be reintroduced to the wild

[MPepper]

Marcus,

regardless of border controls, airport security, baggage checks and all, many of the large shipments of smuggled frogs, atleast fom peru are being sent out in shipments of fish, or sent out as fish, so the weak link in security or customs inspection is in peru, and neither the Department of Fisheries or INRENA recieves sufficient funding to police this properly. Most of these shipments when trans-shipped through another country, be it the US, Canada, or whereever are not inspected, a quick paperwork check and on their way, so it is more up to the destination country to police what is coming in, as opposed to the country of trans-shippment. As much as i would like to place blame on the US gov't for several issues, I can't see the logic in blaming them for missing frogs in transhipped packages or luggage.

I dont think Rob meant any disrespect saying there are more smugglers in europe, but look at the situation objectively, regardless of how many frog keepers there are in the US, the vast majority or new frogs are arriving in Europe first, look at all the recent arrivals of the vicentei morphs, the 'arboreus' type frog, the minyobates, the green legged lamasi, vanzolini, mystis and i could go on, but these all arrive in Europe first.

And using the argument that these were brougt in pre cites and the result of captive breeding just doesn't work with these examples. Though the ultimate destination of these shipments may be indeed to other countries, (and im sure it wont be long before vicentei are "legally" imported into NA) the majority arrive in europe where they are often sold to the North America, asia, and other countries, and as i have said before, i belive anyone buying these frogs from the smugglers is just as guilty as the smugglers themselves.

Marcus I hope you dont take any offence to this. Smuggling is a problem, but its a problem the entire frog keeping community shares, and i think we need to start better policing ourselves before others step in and do the policing for us.

mark

[Marcus]

Mark,

Rob is saying something in a very simple way here. When you want to point into a direction like he does you have to come with more information/explantation in my opinion.
Those fishshipments are just as easily coming in in europe as in every other country...also the usa. These shipments aren't only transshipped in the usa, the enddestination can be the usa. ...so less border control is not only a european 'thing'. That's what I was hoping to clear up here.

As much as i would like to place blame on the US gov't for several issues, I can't see the logic in blaming them for missing frogs in transhipped packages or luggage.
I am not blaming them at all..I just say that there is more control on flights and more chance to get caught ..so i don't understand where you get the idea that I am blaming them??? not at all.
My point is....the way Rob is saying it, it sounds like you can get easily on board with a box full of frogs when you go to a country in Europe. I was clearing that up. Maybe Rob is meaning it otherwise but his too small answer is asking on a 'overseas' reply.
My answer is also more about what Rob is saying here than a specific answer on the topic Mark...sorry for that.

[MPepper]

Marcus,

I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you wrote this,

May I mention that a lot of flights are via american airports and because of 9/11 all lugage has to get out of the plane ..controlled by you guys...and back in. So the lugage will be checked for a minimum of three times

I thought you were saying because luggage was taken of the plane and inspected it was their fault (US Customs) for not finding the any contraband, frogs etc. I guess i read between the lines too much on that statement. Sorry for that.

And you are correct, these shipments have to potential to arrive anywhere, not just in Europe. I think we both agree that this is a problem.

take care,
Mark

[Marcus]

yes we agree 8)