Pumilo Import March

[ktewell]

Originally Posted by nathan

And look at how alot of americans view thier own wildlife. Are we any better? Growing up hardly anyone cared about our local frogs. Im not that old but Ive still heard of alot of people going out and shooting bullfrogs and leopard frogs with bb guns. . . Or seen people speed up to hit an animal trying to cross a road.

Not to detract from your point, but the example you chose is interesting. The state of Washington enforces no hunting season on bullfrogs and there are no restrictions on size or number of frogs that you can kill. They actually go in depth on state gov't websites on the best methods of killing them- even what kind of buckshot to use in a shotgun. I just refreshed my memory of this last night because I went out and caught one adult and one two year old tadpole and was checking the legality of my actions. It turns out you can kill them almost no matter what, but you can never keep or transport them. The species is invasive in Western states and has detrimental effects on native amphibian populations, so by killing bullfrogs you are actually helping the environment (probably).


So, to address your point more directly: yes, it's true that Americans can have similar disregard for wildlife. But the differences in socioeconomic conditions prevent a helpful comparison between the two regions, IMO.

However, this disregard can be influenced through education and financial encouragement: take the example of the Community Baboon Sanctuary in Belize. Where once the farmers would kill howler monkeys to eat or keep them from eating their crops, the farmers now help the monkey population because of the tourism dollars that the animals attract. The population of Alouatta pigra has swelled in the 30 or so years since the CBS' inception. My point here is that we, the consumers, have power in our dollars. We can choose to ignore improper harvesting techniques or we can encourage actions that will allow sustainable harvest by buying from reputable sources who have demonstrated responsible practices.

[thedude]

Originally Posted by ktewell

Not to detract from your point, but the example you chose is interesting. The state of Washington enforces no hunting season on bullfrogs and there are no restrictions on size or number of frogs that you can kill. They actually go in depth on state gov't websites on the best methods of killing them- even what kind of buckshot to use in a shotgun. I just refreshed my memory of this last night because I went out and caught one adult and one two year old tadpole and was checking the legality of my actions. It turns out you can kill them almost no matter what, but you can never keep or transport them. The species is invasive in Western states and has detrimental effects on native amphibian populations, so by killing bullfrogs you are actually helping the environment (probably).

its not a probably. they are horrible to our eco systems and destroying them is the only way to help the wildlife. ive been killing them constantly at a pond by me for 2-3 years now. when i first got there, there was a huge population of bullfrogs, with next to no northwestern salamanders. now, there are no adults left in the pond (big pond by the way), with only 1.5-2 year old tadpoles left. also, the northwestern salamanders population has atleast tripled, while red legged frogs have also returned to the pond. there is also 3 smaller seasonal ponds only about 20 yards away, which never had any amphibians in it because the bull frogs would travel there and eat everything. now there are pacific chorus frogs and long toed salamanders breeding in them. so go back to the pond you got them from, and start killing them. dont look at it as killing frogs, but saving frogs and salamanders, and essentially, the entire eco system.

sorry for the hijack.

i too find it interesting that there are no pics of froglets, and that we always get adult imports. kind of suspicious. also, there is an importer (cant say who obviously) that always says there frogs are captive BORN. that is considered different than captive bred. they could be collecting eggs and hatching them in captivity to sell, instead of breeding them. at any rate, its too bad we cant breed these frogs to the point where they arent brought in anymore.

[kingnicky101]

Just my two cents about all this ranting: I believe what Philsuma said about the abundance of BJ's in Costa Rica earlier in the thread. Some recent importations of mantellas are just wrong, I am shocked and disgusted that aurantiaca are being imported. The reason why they sell is because of their rarity and the fact that they are in high demand. I do NOT think it is okay to import frogs by hundreds to help keep the genes pure or whatever "x" reason. When there actually is a reason it doesn't mean you should import as much as you can get either. Especially because of the mortality rate of the wild collected frogs, if the frogs do need to be imported don't import them in such large amounts. Only a few a here and there and some better work so the mortality rate isn't so great as it would be when they are importing larger quantities of frogs. People not even saying that I won't but you have to admit if there was a list for a critically endangered frog nobody else has you have an urge to buy it that takes over you. This is why I always try to buy captive bred animals. Even in other hobbies people think it's okay to collect animals from the wild. It is beyond cruel to take an animal tha has lived in the wild free roaming its whole life and stick it in a glass box for your entertainment. I always see a major difference in captive bred animals behavior compared to wild caught ones. I am talking about chameleons,frogs, turtles, etc. as a whole. I know we do have to import every now and again so they don't end up the guppies and angelfish after breeing CB's over and over again, but collectors should NOT take advantage of importations due to lack of knowledge in the Panamanian government with conservation of native species. Just my two cents.

[Philsuma]

Originally Posted by kingnicky101

J but collectors should NOT take advantage of importations due to lack of knowledge in the Panamanian government with conservation of native species.

Trust me when I say, the Panamanian government knows full well about every single export. We are not taking advantage of their government.

.....I could say more but for once, I'll leave it at that.

[Ed]

I'll say it..
The Panamanian goverment refused to set export quotas on the frogs. If they had set export quotas that would mean they intended to regulate the trade. Instead with no export quotas, it shows that they intentionally chose to not regulate it.

Ed

[Ed]

Originally Posted by kingnicky101

The reason why they sell is because of their rarity and the fact that they are in high demand

They aren't in that high of a demand or those people who were captive breeding them wouldn't leave reptile shows after having sold none of the golden mantellas they brought with them.. I watched that happen at a couple of IADs. They haven't been that rare in the pet trade..

Originally Posted by kingnicky101

Especially because of the mortality rate of the wild collected frogs, if the frogs do need to be imported don't import them in such large amounts.

The mortality rate is directly related to how the frogs are handled before, during and after importation. Zoos and researchers have repeatedly been able to show that proper handling during the process pretty much eliminates the mortality rates seen in frogs imported for the pet trade or smuggled.

Originally Posted by kingnicky101

Only a few a here and there and some better work so the mortality rate isn't so great as it would be when they are importing larger quantities of frogs.

At this time in the pet trade there really isn't a difference in mortality between 20 frogs and 2000 frogs as the number imported doesn't change how they were treated during the whole process.

Originally Posted by kingnicky101

I know we do have to import every now and again so they don't end up the guppies and angelfish after breeing CB's over and over again.

Actually this is only true if enough of the gene frequency isn't being managed to support the population for the long term. If a person is really interested in preserving the captive bred frogs, they should get involved with ASN.

Ed

[james67]

Originally Posted by kingnicky101

People not even saying that I won't but you have to admit if there was a list for a critically endangered frog nobody else has you have an urge to buy it that takes over you.

the terribs you have are critically endangered in the wild. while im certain you have CB animals, it just goes to show that it isn't all about how endangered an animal is. i doubt most people choose terribilis for this reason, but rather because they like the way it looks etc.

there are plenty of lists of endangered animals available to anyone online. those who seek out these animals don't go through the "regular " channels to get their stock. and i certainly haven't seen arboreus and speciosis being snuck in with any panama shipments from the "regular" importers. these guys (IMO) tend to stick to what is legal, if there is an issue it lies with those in the Panamanian govt. who set quotas and give permits, and like ed said if they wanted to regulate it they would.

james

[Philsuma]

Originally Posted by Woodsman

I hope we can get to the bottom of the issue on the Escudo Island Pumilios. If they were wild-collected from a marine preserve and offered as farm-raised, I think the board should take some action here.

Richard.

Did you find out anything?