HYBRIDS? - Pics and Questions

chinoanoah · #1 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 01:27 AM

I am hoping this can be a thread where photos of Poison Dart Frog Hybrids can be found. I rarely ever see pictures of them. Also if users could input the background behind them, and the current state of each frog.

Secondly, I have one question. Do hybrids ever come about in the wild?

Julio · #2 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 01:38 AM

Nice Pic

james67 · #3 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 02:33 AM

you may have opened up a can of worms here... the reason you don't see pictures is because (if you don't already know) hybridizing is frowned upon greatly. this happens because of many reasons. those who do have hybrids (whether as the result of a mistake or not) are unlikely to post pictures because of the general attitude towards mixing/ hybridizing. we as a community get a set of frogs of a particular morph and generally that's it. one or two shipments of a locality and that's the end of it. because of this, and the fact that over time many of the original shipment's frogs will die (for many factors including falling in to the hands of in-experienced keepers, etc.) thinning out the gene pool in the hobby. dont beleve me? it has happened many times and examples include histos, bluejeans, lorenzos,etc, etc. when frogs are in short supply a true and wild gene pool is a necessity. hybrids are often a burden because the owner of such hybrids may need to keep the frogs for their entire life and in a manner that ensures that no further breeding occurs, because by letting hybrids out to the public they can literally pollute the gene pool. in this hobby a lot is done by word of mouth and trust. and leaking hybrids can be big big problem.

there is debate on whether or not frogs interbreed in the wild. it likely happens but IMO that is for nature to sort out and not us. if you want to mix animals look into snakes or lizards, (leopard geckos are a good way to go in that direction)

just my 2cents. i don't mean to offend anyone with hybrids, and i certainly don't want to hijack this thread, however it will undoubtedly come up, so there it is. my point is that IMO it will be unlikely to see many pics here, people get ostracized for hybridizing and asking people to post pics of their hybrid frogs may be a lot to ask.

also, i think that the fear of the "minority" on these forums, is not that responsible people are experimenting with the knowledge that animals can never be released into the hobby, but that young (and lets be honest here i would venture to guess that most people on this site are below age 20) and naive people who come and go (as most do, unfortunately) can see that someone says IT'S OK, and next thing you know the hobby is nothing but designer trends and interbreeding, leaving the real minority of dedicated keepers to clean up the mess and deal with the impure lines.

on a side note i hope you get what your looking for without catching too much heat form others.

Woodsman · #4 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 02:37 AM

Hi Noah,

Thanks for suggesting this thread. Given the tremendous number of color morphs that exist in pdfs in the wild (I am mostly familiar with D. tinctorius), one has to wonder if some of the morphs are simply "hybrids" between two other morphs (if you look at the photo of a "yellow Sipaliwini" on Sean Stewart's website Herpetologic, it's easy to imagine that a Green Sip and Citronella could have mated and created this particular color morph).

It is a very difficult matter to openly propose the kind of research that would help answer some of these questions on this board, as (I believe) there is a pretty ravenous minority of froggers who either don't understand the science being suggested, or have some sort of knee-jerk reaction that is re-enforced by other ravenous froggers on this site. I was fortunate recently to have a group of "Alanicits" (Alanis X Citronella) at a regional meeting. Expecting the worst, I was really surprised at the positive responses to the frogs and the project that I am working on. I think the most important part of this kind of work is to be completely transparent about the project (anyone interested is welcome to view my collection and breeding projects any time) and to develop a personal code of conduct with regard to the animals produced (especially, to not allow any of the animals produced be sold into the hobby in general, and to provide photos of the crosses that will help people identify them when the see them).

I would hope that any other froggers that have produced morph crosses would post photos of the animals they have produced, even if there will be the inevitable flaming by some on this site. We all have some skeletons in our closets....Let's take them out and give them a little tanning!!

I'll post some of my animals here for you to review. Take care, Richard in Staten Island.

chinoanoah · #5 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 03:52 AM

I am not trying to purchase, breed, or prolong the existence of these hybrids, I would just like to see them. Thank you for all of your information, though!

SamsonsFrogs · #6 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 04:34 AM

If members posted any Hybrid I am sure they would get reamed for having it.

chinoanoah · #7 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 05:49 AM

Why can't we all just post pics no questions asked? I don't see the harm in that. I don't see the harm In any of it as long as the bloodlines stay pure.

jubjub47 · #8 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 07:32 AM

I did a search and found this

Between Image & Object - last pic is a hybrid

Ed K - This page appears to have something to do with Ed, so he may be able to explain these crosses a bit

Most of the crosses I have seen are quite ugly

skylsdale · #9 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 05:27 PM

If you do a search, there is also a fairly recent hybrid thread where multitudes of images of actual hybrids were posted (I believe the thread was started by redeyetreefrog, but I could be wrong).

Ed · #10 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jubjub47

I did a search and found this

Ed K - This page appears to have something to do with Ed, so he may be able to explain these crosses a bit

Those are hybrids that I inherited from another area many many years ago when that keeper quit and left. She had deliberately bred groups of frogs. They were sent to another facility who wanted some generic dendrobatids with a written agreement with that institution that they were not to be bred or housed in a group that was to be allowed to breed.

Ed