So, you want a reason to not mix species?

[JoshK]

Originally Posted by skylsdale

I think that's it exactly. Simple popularity and perceived value is huge. Mantella are a classic victim of this in the hobby. Most people consider them second-rate PDFs...however, when there was a scare that Madagascar was no longer going to export any Mantella species, all of a sudden prices on them in the hobby shot up and everyone was scrambling to get them. Then exports continued once again...as did prices and interest.

When Hyloxalus azureiventris were about to be imported, everyone was talking about them and wanting to get some. The first batch of imports came in and it was discovered they breed like rabbits. Prices fell and interest dropped.

I think perceived prestige and popularity, and the possibility of something new and challenging that no one else has is a huge driver of price and supply in the hobby: a new frog hits the hobby, one of the first obtainers of said species posts pictures of it and everyone drools over it. Then the first person who breeds it posts pictures and an account of it and everyone drools over it. Then more people begin to obtain the frog and breed it...and everyone generally gets bored and starts looking for a new import or species or morph to drool over. The hobby and its fickle nature is its own worst enemy.



I don't really have the answer to that question, but I think it's a conversation that needs to take place. As many of the old-timers know, this hobby has been its best when it actually managed to function like a community. I have both seen and been the recipient of incredibly generosity by people in this hobby. I have built real and lasting relationships with some of them. It's great to see local and regional societies that get together regularly and function cohesively. But as it has gotten bigger and become more accessible, some of this has been lost. So much of the hobby takes place online...via nebulous e-mail exchanges and shipping containers. The knowledge and experience doesn't get passed along in the same way when this happens...something of the spirit of the hobby dissolves. And I have to wonder if this also makes it easier for us to view these frogs primarily as commodities. I don't think it's wrong to charge for frogs or buy frogs, etc...but when it becomes primarily about these things I think the PDF hobby will officially move into the same league as most reptile hobbies: who can create what new/crazy/cool morph or cross and be the sole/major proprietor of that form. That's when egos and attitudes really start to solidify and the actual sense of community that has, at least thus far, characterized this hobby goes out the window.

At NAAC last year in Massachusetts there was a guy attending with his girlfriend. I don't believe he had ever attended a PDF show or event. They both came out on the herp field trip that Friday and the various dinners, speaking engagements, show, BBQ, etc. that took place that weekend. I remember something he mentioned to a few of us at the end of that weekend: he said that he had been involved in a lot of herp hobbies in the past and attended a lot of shows...but that this one was different. He said there actually be a sense of community among people at the show, which he said he had never experienced in any of the other hobbies.

Although there is obviously a somewhat selfish aspect to the hobby in that we choose to keep these animals in captivity for our interest and enjoyment, I also think that the character of our hobby has the potential to affect these animals for better or worse. I think it will affect how we manage (or don't bother to manage) the animals in our care. I think it will affect how we will work together (or don't work together) toward conservation of amphibian species in the wild. The hobby could become an increasingly fickle and narcissistic market (and I'm sure aspects of it will), or it could be comprised of some folks who decided to be serious about the plight many of these species face and commit to doing something about it. Sometimes that may mean NOT keeping 20 different species and having to sell your entire collection 18 months down the road. Maybe it means keeping two different species and keeping them really well, being a solid source and steward for those speices in the hobby and captive cultivation. Maybe it consists of actually managing your animals (like in the *cough*ASN network*cough*) so they are actively being tracked so we know what's going where, what's in trouble and needs attention and what's not, etc. Maybe it means sometimes selling your frogs at a premium price because that's what you feel they're worth and it helps recoup some of the effort/time you put into raising them...and maybe sometimes it means giving a few away free and putting them into the hands of someone who is truly capable of doing well with that species.

None of this is the complete answer to your question, but it's a part of the conversation. My thoughts and $o.o2, whatever they're worth.

I love you Ron!

[somecanadianguy]

Originally Posted by frogfreak

Yes. A large breeder in canada selling almost nothing but frogs and is doing well from what I understand.

Jellyman

I was reffering to canadian businesse's not American. I have no knowledge of those statistics.

Glenn

if u read jasons wording he said sole source , mark {understoryenterprises} sells frogs yes but also sells feeders cages and was doing butterflys and even tours at one point, while i cant speak for mark id geuss that the other extra sales really help keep things going too.
craig

[frogfreak]

Originally Posted by somecanadianguy

if u read jasons wording he said sole source , mark {understoryenterprises} sells frogs yes but also sells feeders cages and was doing butterflys and even tours at one point, while i cant speak for mark id geuss that the other extra sales really help keep things going too.
craig

This is what I said

"Yes a large breeder in Canada sells nothing but frogs and is doing well from what I understand"

What I consider large may be concidered small in the US.

I did not mention a business name nor would I.

From what I understand- I don't look at their books.

Please don't assume it's UE. I know that's the name that is familiar Canada and the US but let's not throw names out there. I know nothing about their business!


Lets be realistic here

Does a landscaping company sell plants only? No They sell dirt,etc

Does a pet shop only sell animals? No they sell food and housing,etc.

Does a fly company sell just flys? No they sell containers,medium,etc

This breeder does sell mostly frogs but are they going to sell food for those frogs-YES

Just wanted to clarify my statement

[Gh0stw4lk3r]

this is what u get when u mix a auratus with a leucomelas.

these are not my frogs, a guy posted this on a forum, he never had the intention of crossbreeding, also will never sell these frogs.
eventough the frogs look kinda cool, i would never have species in my tank that could crossbreed.

this is a nice piece of evidence that it can happen if u have a mixed species tank....

[frogfarm]

I don`t know what is considered doing well.
When you breed frogs and try and sell ff cultures and crickets you can loose more money from people not buying them and you making too many.
All these extra sales and time detracts from paying attention to the frogs which cuts quality.
Also buying supplies to resell takes space and packing, etcetera.
To hire employees cuts down on quality control, which would be what you need to do to sell all these extra items.
To really know what cuts quality and what is doable in a business you have to try it and find out how hard it actually is.
And landscaping companies don`t sell plants and dirt, they care for the plants and buy dirt, mulch etc from some place else that specializes in that aspect of landscaping

Originally Posted by frogfreak

This is what I said

"Yes a large breeder in Canada sells nothing but frogs and is doing well from what I understand"

What I consider large may be concidered small in the US.

I did not mention a business name nor would I.

From what I understand- I don't look at their books.

Please don't assume it's UE. I know that's the name that is familiar Canada and the US but let's not throw names out there. I know nothing about their business!


Lets be realistic here

Does a landscaping company sell plants only? No They sell dirt,etc

Does a pet shop only sell animals? No they sell food and housing,etc.

Does a fly company sell just flys? No they sell containers,medium,etc

This breeder does sell mostly frogs but are they going to sell food for those frogs-YES

Just wanted to clarify my statement

[georgiekittie]

Originally Posted by Adven2er

I was merely trying to point out that, most people who mix, lack the proper husbandry skills to begin with. You've stated before that only the most advanced froggers should be mixing frogs. Why then would they need your advise. If someone asks the question they are surely not an advanced frogger. The answer should be a resounding no!

Because even though they are an expert at keeping frogs, they have no experience with mixed species tanks. Therefore, they would want advice on how to best keep a mixed a species tank.

[yumpster]

Even an expert needs to make sure they have their facts straight or else it could be a froggy massacre!

[Ed]

Even poorly set-up mixed enclosures rarely end up with a massacre unless one has included a major predator (such as Ceratophrys) or a species or species that uses some form of significant weaponry in territorial defense (such as varanids or even possibly Hyla boans). It is much more likely that over a period of weeks or months animals disappear due to quietly dying in some corner of the enclosure.

Ed

[yumpster]

...a figurative massacre

[earthfrog]

Originally Posted by Ed

Even poorly set-up mixed enclosures rarely end up with a massacre unless one has included a major predator (such as Ceratophrys) or a species or species that uses some form of significant weaponry in territorial defense (such as varanids or even possibly Hyla boans). It is much more likely that over a period of weeks or months animals disappear due to quietly dying in some corner of the enclosure.

Ed

I think the main issue with mixing vs. not mixing is rooted in the primary values of the frogger.
I have talked privately with some amateur mixers, and the primary value is a nice-looking frog tank, but there is little interest in conservation.

It reminds me of the commonly-available Glofish that are injected with neon-colors---they sell well and they may live awhile, but is it fair that they have to exist with that genetic manipulation---freaks of nature?
Also, take for instance the public playground at a typical elementary school. There are many different sizes and personalities, enclosed in one area. Some are bullies and gang up on the little people, dominate the play areas and no one corrects them. The teachers supervise, but they have their own concerns. In this case, I was the frog who went into the corner. I thought most people were rude, so I stayed by myself and played alone.
Thankfully, I'm human, so someone eventually felt sorry for me and became my friend.

But these frogs have no recourse. I would say that there is a place for mixed tanks, but it is only in the hands of an experienced keeper at either a zoo or someone involved in conservation/study efforts---someone of great experience and knowledge. I think that many of the mixed tanks are just for jollies, and I do not condone that. It is in some cases cruel, notwithstanding the fact that these frogs will not be able to have a mate and live on.

I will not let my frogs be the ones that die in the corner of their 'playground'.