You know, I briefly entertained the thought of writing a very
very lengthy (more lengthy than this) reply just why, theoretically, dart frog intraspecific aggression should occur more commonly than interspecific aggression
*, but then I thought,
why bother? The rabid "mix-haters" aren't gonna take anyone who tries to have a reasonable discussion about this (animal behaviour is an extremely fascinating topic, in my opinion) serious anyway. Jeez, I am against mixing (for several reasons), but I'm still getting annoyed with people whose only statement to this particular problem of mixing seems to be "you suck, don't do it (anymore)". "Don't do it" is
not a reason, it is advice that should point one in a certain direction, the reasons are WHY the advice points us in that direction.
So why might mixing not be a good idea:
- crossed morphs (in case you mix frogs of the same species, but not morph): Not cool. No-one wants to unknowingly buy a frog of "unpure" (lol) blood. Note: This doesn't stop people from buying tinc "Amotopo" and tinc "Agreja" though. Why not, I wonder? Apparently these morphs are the results of crossing morphs. Shouldn't that make them undesirable? Ah well.
- actual hybrid offspring occurring: It is possible that a auratus mate with a leucomelas, and a auratus x leucomelas hybrid offspring may be born of it. However, I am unsure whether these bastard frogs would even be fertile (anyone?).
- mixing small darts with larger ones: dude. Big will flatten little. If you don't need to expend much energy to take out a weaker individual that competes with you for food (etc), and that you can't breed with (same gender, or different species
and gene pools too far apart), and there isn't much risk of injury, then why not do it? All the better for you (animal logic!
)
- mixing more aggressive darts (a) with "less aggressive" ones (b): dude. A will flatten B. Or he might, at least.
- mixing bolder darts with shyer ones:
And then they starved...
(the last three are all theoretical for me,
I haven't tried them! 
And I don't want to.)
In conclusion: I wouldn't mix 'em.
* Oh yes, if anyone is wondering, in "short": Breeding partners! Since it's every animal's main objectives to a) stay alive (and if possible in good condition) and b) (under favorable conditions) to have as many offspring as possible, it is only logical that, let's say, a male tinc should be more threatened by another tinc than a male of another species, since the animal will recognize the other male as a member of the same species, and that will mean the other male will automatically be seen as a rival for the ladies.
Which, of course, they won't like. Stress. Threatening. Fighting. The more similar a frog is to the first male's species, the more likely it is he will be seen as a rival for females. Similar in shape, seize, color, pattern, sound (their call is
very important! Do tinc males get angry when they hear leucs (in a different tank) calling? Do tinc females react to leuc males calling? Not really. But they get pissed (males) when they hear other tincs), smell (though, of course, I don't know how good frogs can smell, at that).
Even for a different species which occupies the same ecological niche as another species, they're only rivals regarding one of the two main objectives: stay alive + in good condition. That means they're competitors for food, water (well, not regarding darts here
), breeding/nesting spots, and possibly territory as well. That doesn't mean they like each other, of course, just because they're not competing for females. It means they won't necessarily want to expend the energy to get rid of the other (if they are about equal opponents), if it is not necessary.
This is the point where it would be logical that another male leuc means more stress for a male leuc than another male tinc. The second male leuc is a major threat to the first male leucs chances to have offspring (and vice versa, of course). Now both main objectives are threatened. Not cool.
See? Theoretically it makes sense that having same-species animals of the same gender in a tank/cage/small area/whatever together can be just as, if not more critical regarding stress and fighting than a mixed tank. Lol I will probably be getting negative rep points just for stating this, even though I have stated before that I am, in fact, against mixing, but for other reasons.
Practically, studies
have been done on other animals (like birds) that show exactly this: that intraspecific aggression is more common than interspecific aggression. (Right now, I'm pretty sure I even have one report sitting around on my hardware somewhere, a report that states intraspecific aggression occurred more than twice as often than interspecific aggression in a certain kind of bird (I forgot, though I am reasonably sure it was some kind of Shrike).
Of course, if you cram too many beings into a tank/cage/area/whatever, some individuals will inevitably end up drawing the
short straw. Too densely populated area = lack of space/resources = stress = weakened immune system and/or death, aggression (intra- and interspecies), infanticide, etc - all those nasty things.
In light of this, I don't believe the original poster made a very good argument here. because "my two same-species same-gender frogs are fighting, now look what would happen if you mixed frogs?" yeah, kinda self-explanatory.
And now I'm done. I'm sure all
extreme anti-dart-mixers (now that sounds wrong
) will just hate this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman
There are alot of questions here.
What size setups did they have?
How well were they designed?
Where did the plants come from?(possible contamination or fertilizer?
Were backup tanks ready in case frogs needed to be seperated?
How often and how much was being fed?
Were did they get the frogs?
Were the frogs in good health prior to be introduced?
What was the umidity levels?
Was there proper drainage?
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philsuma
NONE of these questions matter. These were new hobbyists that purchased some of their first frogs from.....somebody.... and ended up with a mixed species tank.
Not all new people have computers or can immediately access DB or PM you for advice on issues that crop up.
My guess is that you are going to say that all this is purely coincidental....
|
To put it mildly, I am
surprised that no other Dendroboard member participating in this discussion has taken some real offense to this statement. So you're saying it doesn't matter whether the frogs introduced into the tank were actually healthy in the first place? They could have been parasite-infested, for example. I guess quarantining and getting the frogs' fecals done isn't all that important after all, so long as you make sure you don't put two different species in the same tank. Too low a humidity will not actually cause frogs in a mixed species tank to die and shrivel up because of dehydration, no it will be because THEY HAVE SUCKED THE WATER OUT OF EACH OTHER, LIKE INSECT-EATING, WATER-SUCKING LITTLE KILLING MACHINES.
How they have done this, of course, is another question.
These frogs could have died of pretty much anything. Without proper information we'll never be able to guess at a probable cause. Saying "Ooh they were mixed THAT'S IT!" is simply
not enough. And I am saying this even though I am by no means a supporter of mixed species tanks.
Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?
Linear Mode
