Proper Due Diligence for online frog purchases.

[sports_doc]

Well as a spin off from Kyles recent thread on Community concerns, I'd like to start a civil conversation regarding suggestions for safe online frog purchasing.



Rules:

1. Lets not rehash the vendor feedback debate here. It isn't going to happen on this site at this time.
2. Let's refrain from mentioning specific vendors by name.

_________________

OK, my first suggestions for those contemplating online purchasing come from years of being both a vendor and a customer.



1. Do your own Due Diligence. Don't just rely on others for 'feedback' and advice alone.

• Call the vendor, or email.
• Give them your background and ask theirs. Have some 'conversations' with them prior to ordering so you feel comfortable with them.
• Ask about their shipping requirements, and any guarantees.
• Ask other froggers privately about their experiences [PM system ect.]
• Get pics of frogs if available.
• Make sure they know what you want, and they are supplying what you want. Don't make assumptions on ages/sizes/shipping requirements/guarantees etc.

2. Provide all shipping info to the vendor including name, shipping address, phone # and email so that there is less room for error.

3. Pre-pay with Paypal or Check/CC, which can be tracked and 'disputed' if needed.

4. Communication is key. Both before, and after receipt of the animals.

5. If you have concerns, try using site registered vendors or members in good standing.

6. Realize that in most instances, once a buyer takes possession, further health and care of the animals is up to them/you.

7. Communicate any concerns you have with the vendor directly before you consider ever making transaction specifics 'public'.

8. Realize that in many case the 'vendor' is just another enthusiastic hobbyist like yourself. They don't necessarily need to be a "Pro" in order to get it right.

Shawn

[flyangler18]

An excellent list of guidelines, Shawn. I've been active on a number of forums over the years (on a wide and eclectic variety of subjects), and I'm always flabbergasted that many people will rant/complain/whine about a perceived wrong publicly before contacting the seller directly (and in some cases, in lieu of direct contact).

Seriously, people, pick up the phone. Ask questions, set expectations. Allow sellers to make good on their promises before marring their reputations publicly.

[eLisborg]

Great ideas there Shawn. I think we needed something like this...

[melissa68]

That is something that bothers me as well. People would rather get attention, "poor me, see what xxxx is doing" from the community at large vs dealing with the only person who can solve the issues.

In the end, animals suffer & perceived issues are blown out of proportion.

Shawn - I think the guidelines are good.

Originally Posted by flyangler18

An excellent list of guidelines, Shawn. I've been active on a number of forums over the years (on a wide and eclectic variety of subjects), and I'm always flabbergasted that many people will rant/complain/whine about a perceived wrong publicly before contacting the seller directly (and in some cases, in lieu of direct contact).

Seriously, people, pick up the phone. Ask questions, set expectations. Allow sellers to make good on their promises before marring their reputations publicly.

[jubjub47]

Originally Posted by sports_doc

• Ask other froggers privately about their experiences [PM system ect.]

This one can be a bit uncomfortable I guess would be the proper term. It's almost impossible to know who has bought frogs from people unless you know that they have purchased from them to begin with. I assume that your recommending to post in the vendor info and questions area? Even though responses in that area are to be done through pm, I can see where an individual frogger who is selling frogs could take offense to you posting up the question as to whether or not a person has done business with them. I personally wouldn't care and would almost prefer they do about things I'm selling just so they know that they are dealing with a fair and honest person. What is the take on those of you who sell on these forums to seeing your name show up in that section? Like I said, I don't think that it should be looked at as insulting. If you're an honest seller you should have nothing to worry about right?

[eLisborg]

I don't really think honesty had much to do with it, more just how reputable you are. If you are supply people with terrible animals but are honest about it I think that is a lot worse than being a really good breeder who makes occasional mistakes.

It also seems like people are more inclined to post if they have had a bad experience. I am not sure why but it definetily seems people are more inclined to complain rather than compliment. So if there was something posted about xxxxx I don't necessarily think the comments would accuratly show the quality of their services.

People also hear what they want to hear, even if there is only one statement saying what they want to hear, I think some people will ignore all the others, blaming it on the customer or shipping ect.

[stemcellular]

Thanks for starting this Shawn.

One thing that I have found extremely helpful is when vendors/sellers offer references when you start talking seriously about a purchase. While I don't always check (sometimes I do) it definitely goes a long way to assuaging any concerns.

[somecanadianguy]

have realistic expectations on what your getting ,if something is priced too low find out why.
ask any health questions before sale is made ,like do they have a treatment history , have fecals ever been done, if wc what treatments if any have been done, this can be valuable info to have before a sale is made and should affect the cost.

if possible ask for copies of original cites papers , for some these could be very good to have in future
thats all i can thinkof looks good shawn

[jubjub47]

Originally Posted by otis07

I don't really think honesty had much to do with it, more just how reputable you are. If you are supply people with terrible animals but are honest about it I think that is a lot worse than being a really good breeder who makes occasional mistakes.

I think that reputation plays a lot into it. My point was directed towards buying from individuals who are not necessarily a steadily appearing name in the classifieds who may just have a few pairs of frogs that produce occasional offspring. These sellers are not going to have a known reputation like a more frequent seller. More than likely this seller has sold nothing but quality animals and been a reputable seller in their past transactions, but since they only have a few frogs for sale every 6 months or so they are kind of an unknown. There is a fairly large number of posts that get made in the classifieds from sellers just like this. If your that seller or maybe put yourself in that sellers place....would it bother you to see another frogger who you've discussed a sale with post a thread asking if anyone has dealt with you in the past to please pm them?

[EricM]

Good Thread Topic Shawn.

I don't pop frogs up on the classifieds but I will pm someone if they are looking for something I have available. I've had some interesting conversations or lack there of. Both parties really need to "talk" about the frogs care. What are the successes and failures the seller has had with x species. What recommendations do they have about viv size, feeding, reproduction needs, how susceptible to stress are they, etc. This type of conversation and data gathering gives both parties a chance to eliminate surprises down the line. Which is good for the frogs and the people.

I've been around for decades in the frog hobby but I don't take offense to being asked for references. Although some of my references may be "old timers" as well so it can be tricky to someone who has just started in the frog hobby. I think it shows some caution and a serious concern about getting quality frogs from a sellers point of view.

Bargaining. I don't take offense to someone asking for a better price, but I do take offense to those that demand it because someone else is whoring out their frogs for cheap. Most of the time you get what you pay for. There is always the case where people breed too many frogs and unload them. It happens all the time, just watch the classifieds; but that doesn't mean we are all bound to cheaper prices. My first question is why aren't you buying those frogs then. There are a lot of other factors that make a good frog besides price so take those into consideration and ask specific questions before assuming too much.

I like the suggestion of putting up a message on the board to solicit feedback in dealing with a specific buyer/seller. Maybe Kyle could make this a separate section that would instantly lock the thread to prevent public replies and only let pm's through.

Just some thoughts
Eric