MS "turquoise and bronze"/PN "green and bronze"

[shockingelk]

From my understanding Michael Shrom's "turquoise and bronze" and Pat Nabor's "green and bronze" are among many lines of auratus derived from imports without location specific data and can be considered the same morph for breeding purposes.

Both seem like they'd fall under the "'Bronze blue or green" described here: www.tropical-experience.nl - Dendrobates auratus morphguide and the "Turquoise" morph described here:Welcome to JB EXOTICS | "Where Introducing you to the Rainforest's Jewels is what we do"

'Turquoise' - AKA blue/green, teal. These animals range from pure green to a bright blue (tho rarely as deep a blue as the 'Blue' form) on a background of black to bronze, and the blue coloration can vary in intensity in individual animals over time. These frogs morph out with black backgrounds, which may stay black or lighten to a pale bronze as they age. Patterns range from mostly turquoise with little bronze, to mostly bronze animals with almost reticulated patterns. These animals can produced the whole range of colors (green, turquoise, blue, black, bronze, patterning) in a clutch, tho some lines tend to produce certain characteristics more than others - such as the Super Blue line which produces blue animals with more bronze with more regularity than other lines. Blue and Bronze are a similar case, being very blue animals from this morph, and do not breed this coloration true, showing the typical 'Turquoise' range of clutch color and pattern, tho they likely have a higher chance of producing more blue animals. Microspot are animals of this morph with very little bronze, resulting in animals with bronze "spots", pattern opposite of the 'Acon Hill' animals... it does not breed true.

In your opinion, is it OK to mix?

[nish07]

I'd keep the lines separate but that's me. If I wanted to buy some I'd want to know the origin and a mixed group doesn't sound good.

It's sort of true that locality data is sparse on those auratus. You could be mixing guys that weren't close in the wild and therefor producing something that wouldn't be found in the wild to begin with. It's not necessarily the idea that they would be fit to be released in the event of extinction, but that they were collected from the same area to begin with and therefor representative of frogs from one specific area that would matter to me.

That's just my opinion, though.

-Nish

[shockingelk]

Originally Posted by nish07

I'd keep the lines separate but that's me.
-Nish

Thanks - I should be more specific about my dilemma.

At this point, I can't keep them separate - I have six froglets raised from tadpoles or eggs in the same shoebox, one of which is the Michal Shrom line, the rest Pat Nabors. I can only positively identify one from the PN line which I suspect has SLS. I was under the impression that these were for all purposes the same morph until some off-board conversation with the member I got the PN line eggs from.

As I see it, I can:

1. Euthanize all of them due to my screw up if I decide they shouldn't be mixed.
2. Forever keep the males and females separate once sexable.
3. Keep them together and sell the offspring as "D. auratus, green and bronze, F3 from Michael Shrom and Pat Nabors lines."
4. Sell them now as "D. auratus, either Michael Shrom turquoise and bronze or Pat Nabors green and bronze."

Hoping opinions posted here will help me make the decision.

Thanks

[nish07]

It depends on whether or not you're against euthanizing them. If you don't like the idea of letting them go, you can keep them together but not let them breed (pull eggs or leave nowhere for them to transport but they'll continue to try). I wouldn't sell them, they'll just end up going to someone who might sell them as one or the other. You might give them to friends who just want to keep them as pets with no intention of breeding them and tell them not to sell/give them away.

-Nish

[melissa68]

I just had this question the other day & let me see if I can shed some light on the issue.

Yes - most if not all of the turquoise & bronze & the green and bronze came out of the same shipment. This was the first farm raised auratus shipment that came in (2002 - 2004 I found an invoice but don't remember getting those frogs :-) ). There were also a few others shortly after this that can be included in this group, but I can only talk about the first one.

Some of the frogs were separated, fine spot, turquoise, green etc... and sold for their characteristics. Of the original trio we got, we have sold offspring to a number of people, including Michael who added them to his breeding groups to strengthen the blood line. See image below.



These are also the same frogs which Brian @ Brian's Tropicals has offspring that produce the Albinos.

As I have stated before, I think too many people are concentrating on line breeding these guys. The base stock were Panamanian Green & Bronze auratus. I think as long as people realize these were in some of the first shipments you will be ok.

FYI - we actually have 2 groups of Green & Bronze breeders. Just because you got them from us, doesn't mean it was the 1st group (pictured above) or our 2nd pair. If we didn't identify them to you when we sold them - all I can tell you is you have F1 Green & Bronze auratus from us.

Hope that helps.

[kristy55303]

so melissa you are saying you support mixing pat nabors green and bronze morph and michael shrom definite turquoise and bronze? I have seen them. they look totally different. wouldnt that be hybridizing? mixing the lines is a different story if in fact beyond ashadow of a doubt it is the same morph. then it helps the gene pool rather than breeding down the lines. but mixing to different morphs would be hybridizing them imo. kristy

[porkchop48]

I think what melissa may be saying is that they majority of them all came from the same place/ shipment of farm raised dart. They were sold based on the characteristics. Not because they were "different" frogs

If you read correctly some of the ones Melissa produced were sold to Michael and added to his breeding group.

The turq and bronze that I have came from Mike Shrom as well ( a round about way) and look more blueish. But yet they potentially came from the same frogs that Melissa and Brian's tropicals produces.

I was one of the ones that recently inquired about this to Melissa. I asked about the ones that Brian had that were albinos. Well I asked Brian and he said his were from Melissa. So then I moved on to Melissa. Melissa answered my question than and this just helps explain it a bit more. I was thinking of purchasing one of the albino from Brian when I get the extra cash ( I am not made of money right now) but I wanted to make sure I could add it to my group. After reading this and her email answer I have no problems adding one to my group and still will be able to sleep at night and not think that I am mixing :-)

[melissa68]

Kristy - Is your Caps Lock button broken on your keyboard?

Originally Posted by kristy55303

so melissa you are saying you support mixing pat nabors green and bronze morph and michael shrom definite turquoise and bronze? I have seen them. they look totally different. wouldnt that be hybridizing? mixing the lines is a different story if in fact beyond ashadow of a doubt it is the same morph. then it helps the gene pool rather than breeding down the lines. but mixing to different morphs would be hybridizing them imo. kristy

I didn't say any such thing. If that is what you perceived by my post you are incorrect. It is important to know the founding stock of the animals you purchase. Most of the founding stock established breeders have came out of the Panamanian Green & Bronze shipments. The early shipments are much different than the ones that come in today. So, unless you know the history and were privy to all the information available then making a statment that this is hybridizing is careless and more misinformation.

My Green & Bronze spotted 'microspotted' auratus produce turquoise & bronze, green & bronze & their offspring have produced albinos all of them have varying degrees of spotting...some circular and symmetrical why others not at all. If I were to take your approach - only albinos could be breed together, or microspots, etc.... All we would do is weaken the lines.

Many of these frogs came from the 1st 3 shipments. They were split out at that time & sold & then breeders split them out some more and created pairs. Some produce true, others don't.

So, before anyone begins culling animals get the real story. Don't take hearsay from the forums as fact. Since I have spoken to Michael about this issue personally & have some of those frogs from that shipment I think I am qualified to comment about it.

Originally Posted by kristy55303

I have seen them. they look totally different.

As an example. Super Blue auratus. Currently there is an add in the classifieds for some. I know the person who has them for sale and I actually spoke to him last night. Since the add will be trimmed I am going to insert some images so people can follow this conversation in the future.

Super Blue parents -




can produce offspring like this:



and like this:



He actually gets the brown ones out about 10% of the time. Under your assumptions, because these frogs "look different" they are "different" and if breed together are "hybrids". Well - you are wrong.

These are the same frogs, same lines, etc. His adults are from the same "super blue" lines and are F1s if I remember correctly as many other breeders.

In addition, froglets of these guys can actually have subtile coloration changes as they age.

So - if you don't know who the seller is and can't trace the linage back line breeding can occur just because frogs look different. Luckily, most people are responsible enough to find this information out and not "judge a book by it's cover" so to speak.

Melissa

[kristy55303]

i was asking politely as i did not know the actual positive answer, just what i thought. so thanks for the clarification. I ask so i can learn as well...dont know melissa what you mean by i"s my caps lock on"....or if you meant something else by it jokingly, but my capslock is off. As far as them looking different i guess i should have reworded my post. my green and bronzes have looked similar indeed but have thrown a couple still green but with a blue cast if you look carefully.not blue though. Thats what i meant by that. just wanted clarification it wasnt hybridizing. kristy

[melissa68]

There is some supposition that the entire line is a mixed bag or mutt if you know what I mean. So many thing can come out of it and they do.

Auratus are an under rated group and it is easy to mix them up. We have tried very hard to keep the multiple ones we have separate.

Pet peeve about caps locks. Being a smart ass.

The frogs from Adam are a good example of the opposite of albinoism. Some of the green & bronze auratus that were brought in throw these as well. See this page for more information: Welcome to Robbster.com Dart Frogs Page Robb did a very good job documenting these.

Originally Posted by kristy55303

i was asking politely as i did not know the actual positive answer, just what i thought. so thanks for the clarification. I ask so i can learn as well...dont know melissa what you mean by i"s my caps lock on"....or if you meant something else by it jokingly, but my capslock is off. As far as them looking different i guess i should have reworded my post. my green and bronzes have looked similar indeed but have thrown a couple still green but with a blue cast if you look carefully.not blue though. Thats what i meant by that. just wanted clarification it wasnt hybridizing. kristy