D. HISTRIONICUS

[sldunn]

not sure where to put this... anyway i was wondering if anyone has been know to sell histrionicuss'. i know sean stewart has some, but it would be nice to get my hands on a pair myself; some of the blue ones would be ideal.

[Brian Ferriera]

They are few and fair between without having the right connection. They where just never breed in an y numbers back when we all had the chance when we could get them for $40. Last time I saw some they where $400+ a frog. If you can find them expect to pay for them.
Brian

[markpulawski]

They were $40 when they were being imported legally from Ecuador but that was 10 years go or thereabouts. I only know of 2 people that had lines that originated from those (Robbster and AJ Calisi). Recently it seems quite a few adult animals (Histos & Sylvaticus) have shown up here in the states, we have to thank our European bretheren for breeding the very difficult egg feeders, raising them to adulthood and then exporting them to the US.
People get up in arms over Mysteriousis which breed regularly in captivity, is there a difference between them and Sylvaticus/Histrionicus?
Mark
ps I am looking for yellow Lehmanni

[Brian Ferriera]

I guess it depends on how you look at it mark..but it will be a cold day in <censored> before I debate the man that got us Terribilis for the first time. :lol:
Brian

[elmoisfive]

Not wanting to turn this thread into another dust up about smuggling, I personally wonder how many of those adult histronicus/sylvaticus were truly captive bred and also how many of them came in via legal channels as opposed to in someone's coat pocket.

I grant that our European bretheren have clearly been having success with these frogs but the surge in adults coming into this country has me wondering.

Bill

[markpulawski]

Sorry my cynicism didn't leak though well enough, my comment was that the Mysteriousis are in likelyhood CB animals, though the original breeding stock obviously was not. The Histo/Sylvaticus imports would be in my estimation guilty until proven innocent, prove to me you are breeding these animals in any numbers and then raising until adulthood??? Yea I sell all my cb offsrping as adults, anybody would be a fool to believe these are CB animals.
To rephrase my earlier comment, most all condemned an earlier thread in regards to some Mysteriousis being available here in the US, yet people applauded a thread on someone's geat Sylvaticus tank/pair. What is the difference between these 2....None other than the Mysti's were probably CB bred and the Sylvaticus had CITES documents from Europe.....what is better, WC laundered frogs or cb high profile illegal frogs?
mark
ps amend my wanted to CB yellow Lehmanni

[markpulawski]

Oh and Brian the Terribilis, yes CITES from Europe. You may not have known this but they actually occur in a small patch of rain forest just south of Berlin.
Do we condemn smuggled animals if they supply the hobby and take most of the pressure off of future collecting?? A good question but as Ed so often points out, one of the most smuggled frogs are Auratus, there must be some really neat morphs we have not seen yet! There is no difference between many of the frogs the hobby has today and Mysti's sitting in the que other than is a real legal farming effort taking place with this species. I would hate to see anything dilute that effort. People think Terribilis are legal because at one time they were exported for scientific purposes, someone smarter than me please comment if any of these made it to the private sector....I think we all know the answer. Heck who am I to throw stones, I certainly have lived on both sides of the fence.
mark

[elmoisfive]

Mark,

I think one problem is that many on this board don't realize that those interesting Histo and Sylvaticus adults coming into the US are very likely laundered WC animals, smuggled to Europe and then 'legally' exported to the United States. Perhaps if more people were aware they wouldn't ooh and ahh at certain threads.

Mystis are another sore spot for people. If I understand where the USFW stands, they are not legal here in the US. Yet they do exist here in the States. Go figure.

There are a lot of inconsistencies in how the standards are being applied and as you probably know better than I, the history of some of these species in terms of legal importations versus diversions versus less than legal exportations is pretty murky.

Bill

[UmbraSprite]

So Mark,

That was you we all met in the seedy NYC hotel room? That was the funniest scene....tons of froggers waiting in a lobby in a hotel that looked like it rented by the hour. We go into the room and there are just stacks of frogs. I remember bring Sean Stewart and myself back some of those first mint terribilis which were some of most robust and prolific frogs I have ever kept.

Chris

[markpulawski]

Yes that was me ..involved in the great Chytrid importation of '97.