The ultimate clay-based substrate thread

[Feelin Froggy]

Sorry to dig up this dinosaur but I've been reading so many soil threads the last few days I just had to ask some questions.

I'm setting up a few vivs for pumilio in the next few weeks. I used to keep them years ago but was never very successful at raising tads. With all the new knowledge out there I though I would give them another try.

That said... I would prefer to not have to bathe my froglets with calcium liquids and instead would love to try calcium based clay substrates as their source. Or calcium rich food.

Which brings me to my questions... I'll leave this disclaimer. I'm even more confused now than I was before.

Will using a clay based substrate actually provide a source of usable calcium? If so what is the most readily available that is the most beneficial. Going through that Chemistry experiment does not sound fun to me!!

Would soaking leaf litter in a fluid calcium solutions prior to use in a viv provide any benefit. I feel like calcium enriched leaves would be eaten by inverts. Likewise would the frogs not come into contact with it and be to absorb anything beneficial that way? (That may be a question for another thread)

That's about it. Just want to be able to control as many variables as possible. Thanks!!

[Ed]

Originally Posted by Feelin Froggy

Will using a clay based substrate actually provide a source of usable calcium? If so what is the most readily available that is the most beneficial. Going through that Chemistry experiment does not sound fun to me!!

It is actually how it would happen in the wild.. Virtually all of the invertebrates have a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio regardless if they are captive bred or found in the wild. What changes this ratio is the calcium in the soil/substrate as particles of it can be found in and on the invertebrates in addition to the fact that the frog will consume substrate with the invertebrate and the ability to uptake calcium through the drinking patch.

Originally Posted by Feelin Froggy

Would soaking leaf litter in a fluid calcium solutions prior to use in a viv provide any benefit. I feel like calcium enriched leaves would be eaten by inverts. Likewise would the frogs not come into contact with it and be to absorb anything beneficial that way? (That may be a question for another thread)

No for several reasons,
1) high calcium diets generally are avoided by invertebrates as they can be lethal to the invertebrates. This is well documented in crickets and several other invertebrates.
2) It will flush through the system when watered as you would have to use a soluble calcium salt and as such it would be pushed into the water layer as soon as it was heavily misted
3) if you aren't misting frequently, the salt would be bad for the plants and could actually reduce microfauna as higher salt content can reduce the ability to osmoregulate by both microfauna and the frogs.
4) for calcium to be absorbed it has to be slightly mobile and in solution.

You also have to keep in mind that if the frog does not have sufficient vitamin D3 then the calcium cannot be properly metabolized.

The clay recipes in this thread (as has been noted above) are aimed at making the substrate as close as possible to natural substrates and yes calcium is available in them. I'm not sure why you are calling it a chemistry experiment. I'm pretty sure the references on calcium availability were referenced in the above thread. If not, then read the Nutrition chapter in Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery along with the associated bibliography.

I'm curious about your comment on rearing pumilio tadpoles... It gives the appearence that you were pulling the tadpoles and attempting to artificially rear them. Is that the case?

Ed

[Feelin Froggy]

The reference towards the chemistry experiment was to reading all of the ingredients, baking, running through a screen, breaking it... Do the gooey pokey. Lol

Did I miss something when I was reading through the thread? Is there an easier way?

If not what alternatives are there?

Thanks for the help!!

[Ed]

Originally Posted by Feelin Froggy

Did I miss something when I was reading through the thread? Is there an easier way?
If not what alternatives are there?

Yes, you can dig up and use dirt from outside, but be forwarned that is a good path to adding animals or pathogens you don't want in the enclosure.

The reason there are those procedures is because the goal is to get the substrate to simulate how it works in the wild. You can shove some wet clay and into the tank and it will kind of work, but without the pores and area for the invertebrates to retreat into and hide or walk around in, and for the frog to ingest while feeding it won't perform in the way that is wanted.. I'm pretty sure this was discussed in the above thread more than once.

Ed

[Feelin Froggy]

I saw another member was using clay collected from Staten Island (Matt maybe??) I live in south Florida. I'm pretty sure we dont have much clay here. I'm not sure our soil here is suitable for use in a viv. It's very sandy and doesnt support a whole lot of diversity.

I was directed to a link that Doug (Pumilo) started with his clay method. Seems WAY easier to make than most of the other formula's I've read about trying. I think I'm going to get the ingredients put together and try making a batch.

Just one other question. Would it be beneficial to try liquefying some of the clay mix and rolling leaf litter around in it. Would that not afford the frogs and bugs more opportunities to come in contact with the clay? Just a thought.

Thanks for all the help!!

[Ed]

Originally Posted by Feelin Froggy

I saw another member was using clay collected from Staten Island (Matt maybe??) I live in south Florida. I'm pretty sure we dont have much clay here. I'm not sure our soil here is suitable for use in a viv. It's very sandy and doesnt support a whole lot of diversity.

I was directed to a link that Doug (Pumilo) started with his clay method. Seems WAY easier to make than most of the other formula's I've read about trying. I think I'm going to get the ingredients put together and try making a batch.

Just one other question. Would it be beneficial to try liquefying some of the clay mix and rolling leaf litter around in it. Would that not afford the frogs and bugs more opportunities to come in contact with the clay? Just a thought.

Thanks for all the help!!

I think Doug has a good method. The highest productivity comes from where the layer of leaf litter contacts the clay. This creates a zone in which conditions favor action by the microfauna. If you wet the leaf litter in the clay, you are changing the ecological function of the niches created (and if the clay covered leaves forms a thick enough layer, there will be a chance they can go anaerobic which will prevent the proper function).
Nature has worked out a very good system.. it is very hard to improve on it.

Ed