The ultimate clay-based substrate thread

[iljjlm]

Actually if you read back to the inception of this concept, or even perhaps just this thread, the original idea was the leaves being present.

Yeah I remembered that somewhere in this thread someone mentioned another post about redart clay. I have read that thread now and it makes sense. I guess you could add a <1 cm layer of organic matter between the leaf litter, but over time doing nothing will provide the same results. Good things do come to those who wait.

-Dave

[bbrock]

I can tell you that the roots do react as you would hope too. The viv I've had the clay soil in longest has formed an increasingly dense network of roots on the soil surface and just beneath the leaf litter layer. Another thing I've notices is that it doesn't seem to build a humus layer. Leaves break down, and you can always find stuff in various stages of decomposition, but when you peel back the rotting leaves, you find roots and soil and lots of critters squirming around. I don't know if it will build humus over time (which I rather hope it doesn't), or if there is some mechanism that prevents it from forming. I always guessing in the tropics that there was just so much competition that even humic acid was consumed quickly. Any idea Matt?

[Corpus Callosum]

Originally Posted by iljjlm

I guess you could add a <1 cm layer of organic matter between the leaf litter

Just to clarify.. leaf litter is the organic matter, or at least one type (so you don't need to add 'organic matter' between the leaf litter.. just the leaf litter will be fine).

[iljjlm]

I understand that leaf litter is organic matter. I was just thinking of something a little more broken down.

I have a very limited understanding of the dynamics of rainforest soils. When I have been hiking through both primary and secondary tropical rainforests I am usually looking at the flora and fauna not the soil. From what I do remember the layers above the clay had a 5 to 6in layer of humus on them. Where we would hike where there was no humus it would be next to a stream/river, so obviously there would be no buildup. The clay/substrate here looked very compacted. Again like I said a very limited observation of the substrate.

In the tanks that I will be building up I will use just leaf litter over Brent's "Dirty Old Man Performance Subsstrate". Within time a layer of humus might or might not build up.

-Dave

[Matt Mirabello]

Just wanted to post an update with some ideas for the soil mix, though I have not tried them yet. They incorporate ideas that Brent and Ed have already mentioned.
My recipe calls for 5% organic matter, labile organic matter. Organic material that bacteria and fungi readily consume in soil. The result is that the soil mix gets moldy! This is not a bad thing however. Certain arbuscular micorhizae fungi produce an organic material that is excellent for holding soil together. It is estimated to be ~1/3 of all soil organic matter. It is protein and sugar based but surprisingly resistant to decay (though it is documented to decay faster in warm environments).

Using the soil recipe and inoculating it with fungi spores could help glomalin formation and aid in structure of the soil so it does not turn to sticky clay.

It is also stabilized/tighly associated with iron cations, another ingredient in the soil mix.

In January I will try some experiments with this

[sports_doc]

Originally Posted by gary1218

Hmmmmm................I think I'll wait till you make up a batch to sell. Please put me at the top of the list

:-)

Here's what we should do Gary, get the NE/NY frog groups together somewhere this Spring, have all the supplies pre-purchase. And on a nice sunny Sat we make up monster batches with a rented cement mixer. Enough for all to go home with a 5gal pale full.

Add frog talk, BBQ and liquid refreshments and its a Dirty Old Man Party!

[kyle1745]

I am not sure how much a larger cement mixer would work. I sure would be interested in the results.

[bbrock]

Originally Posted by kyle1745

I am not sure how much a larger cement mixer would work. I sure would be interested in the results.

How come? I thought a cement mixer would be just the ticket for mixing up large batches. You've had about as much experience making this stuff as me so I'm interested in what it was about our experiences that led us to different conclusions. Throw in enough liquid refreshments and nobod will care if it works or not. For the record though, I think it is just plain wrong to have a Dirty Old Man party without the Dirty Old Man ;-)

[gary1218]

Originally Posted by sports_doc

Here's what we should do Gary, get the NE/NY frog groups together somewhere this Spring, have all the supplies pre-purchase. And on a nice sunny Sat we make up monster batches with a rented cement mixer. Enough for all to go home with a 5gal pale full.

Add frog talk, BBQ and liquid refreshments and its a Dirty Old Man Party!

The van is all gased up and ready to go. Just let me know where and when and I'll pick up Aaron & Oz along the way. I'm always ready for a FIELD TRIP

[Matt Mirabello]

Originally Posted by bbrock

I always guessing in the tropics that there was just so much competition that even humic acid was consumed quickly. Any idea Matt?

Brent, sorry i did not reply earlier, just saw your post now. In the same reserve where I do my research another researcher is looking at the importance of leaf litter. Some plots get their leaf litter completely removed and then moved to another plot. So for 5+ years some forest soils have had no leaf litter input and others have had double (and controls). The plots with more leaves take longer for them to break down, but they do eventually break down, no humus forming yet!

This is a lowland tropical forest. No comment for highland forest soils that are also nutrient rich. I was in El Valle de Anton and it seemed like organic matter in the soil was more persistent. This could be more a function of the rich volcanic soil than the lower seasonal temperatures.