Re: Giant Orange vs. Regina

[tinctoritus]

I knew this discussion came up before but I couldnt for the life of me find the thread.

Patrick Nabors and Sean Stewart's descriptions of either morph are opposite.

Marcus Breece says 'Regina' are fabricated, a marketing ploy and do not exist.

So....what now? I acknowledge theres a difference between the two but is it all just variability among a select group? Most every pic I find of Giant Orange have much more blue on the body then those of Regina. Marcus says theres much variability among new metamorphs within the same clutch. For those who have either 'morph', is there much variability to be seen or is coloration consistent?

And one more question: If Regina is actually a Giant Orange, hypothetically okay to interbreed the two?

Not disputing either of the mentioned above persons, just wanting some other peoples perspectives.

Regards,

C

[sports_doc]

this is a can of worms.

My opinion having kept "both" for >2 years now, bred both, seen both bought and sold...

is, they are different. They are different sizes, different body configurations, different colored ect. I cant prove that though, and others who know their original import status might be able to shed more light...

I bet there are mixed hybrids out there (for instance I once bought a "pair" of Regina the were a mix of a female regina and a male GO, so if that person had bred them---he wasnt successful---they would have been sold as regina and passed around the hobby).

The offspring are variable esp amongst the Regina...but NOT that variable. No way I'd mistake the 2 offspring in my collection if they were all tossed together in a tank for instance.

That might not be true for everyone esp if they had hybridized animals???

Anyway, my original pairs came from Patrick, so all I can say is that I have what he called GO and Regina and what he kept separate as such.

Maybe this is a case of extended line breeding separating out traits on one single original variable wild population?

Who knows more on the subject can chime in. please.

S

[ErickG]

I'm not an expert on the topic by far, but I, too, have both "supposed" morphs. But I will agree with Shawn as to the difference in size, and overall body configuration.

Here's my take on how I find the difference:
The "alleged" reginas I have came from Patrick, also. Looking very similar to the pictures he has on his site, containing a significant amount of yellow. Whether or not it's the switched views on them being Giant Oranges, I really dont know. My GO's typically have more blue around the leg area, and retain more black on their overall pattern. Seeing them next to each other, I can find the differences between the two.

Now, for the sake of potentially getting different bloodlines, I've picked up several of GO's from Marcus, as well. Which he says comes from two lines; S. Stewart, and a gentleman by the name of Charles Mizuhara, from Hawaii. Though there are similarities to both of my current stock, they are still too young to gauge whether the patterns will be an indication. If the patterns remain the same or the body shape differs, only time will tell at this point.

In the interest of preventing hyrbidization, I'll obviously keep them apart until someone can have concrete proof, whichever way this argument goes.

I also urge anyone who I've sold my regina's to in the past, or anyone who keep these frogs, to chime in.

[KeroKero]

It's Charles (Chuck) Nishihara actually

Part of the problem I think comes from how these frogs got into the hobby... via europe, wild imporations, both, or one morph one way, the other morph another? Are they like the sips, in which we kept seperate and the forms have bred to the point of more regularly producing like animals? Are they acutally from different parts of an extended wild population? Similar can of worms to Alanis/Inferalanis... there are color/body differences in them too, but does that mean they are different?

We could argue GO/Regina, Alanis/Inferalanis, Blue/Green Sips all day long. We don't know, and likely will never know. Keeping them seperate is a better safe than sorry scenario. They are walking the line of lumping/seperating.

[MPepper]

FWIW I recently spent a few days in Holland with Ruud Schouten, owner of Rana. Ruud has over the duration of the last 20 - 25 years travelled many times to French Guyanna and was one of the first froggers to visit Regina, the locality of the regina morph. According to Ruud, the name Giant Orange originated when he exported frogs to John Uhern of reptile specialties in the early 1990's. John thought he could market them better as "Giant Orange" hence the name Giant Orange was born. Other later exportation from other european sources and to other american importers came in as regina, and regina they remained. So according to Ruud, and a few others Dutch hobbyiests I had the pleasure of speaking with, and who have seen these frogs in the biotope, they are one and the same.

I cannot expand any further than that, as I have neither been to French Guyanna, nor worked with either of these animals, but would be inclined to take their word for it. From experience with dozens of other species in the wild, the differences percieved between these two supposed morphs could very easily fall within the range of normal intrapopulational variation expressed amongst poison frogs.

[ErickG]

thanks for the correction corey!

[sports_doc]

Very interesting info Mark. thanks.

So it may indeed be a case of extended line breeding separating out traits.

I'll try and grab some side by side adult pic and post them.

Shawn

[tinctoritus]

If this is in fact intrapopulational variation, its among one of the most consistent (if thats the appropriate word to call it) between the two variations Ive seen in one animal.

I reckin the whole blue/green sip, alanis/inferalanis would qualify as well.

C

[Don1]

Hi,
im no expert not by any means but a person i know who breeds blue sips,
told me that he has mixed off spring of green and blue so what does that mean?
both the parents are blue.
I have also heard this off of a few people.
but then i read on the net that they were different morphs, but could they just be that nor green or blue sips breed true to colour.
i find things like this very intresting.
Thanks Brendan.

[tinctoritus]

Theres some Tanganyikan cichlids called Cyprichromis where males have either a yellow or blue caudal fin. Yellow or blue tailed males throw either color tailed offspring. Polychromatism I think its called? The blue/green sips could be the same situation.