Re: Giant Orange vs. Regina

[rmelancon]

Originally Posted by Wetts11

Im no expert but I feel strongly about the subject...

As far as frogs varrying from "different ends" of a "continuous" population, I think this is a bunch of rubbish! All over the world in all walks of life "continuous" populations yield offspring that is so similar they cannot be seperated if you look at the "big" picture. Why should frogs be any different?

Well, how about for starters they are frogs and as such have a completely different genetic makeup and completely different natural history than say humans or dogs. As far as frogs varying on different ends of a continuous population... not rubbish, in fact there are several people who can chime in with many examples of frogs that vary from yellow specimens on one end of say a river, to red specimens on the other end of the river.

Originally Posted by Wetts11

So seperation in my eyes is more or less amuzing. As previously stated we as hobbiests and dare I say consumers prefer certain colorations and sizes and strips. As mentioned with arautus we are so focused on not mixing blood lines that we infact seperate species!

Well, auratus is a species in and of itself so not quite sure I follow you... Yes we do in fact separate species, are you advocating the interbreeding of species? Say a leucomelas X auratus hybrid, is that what you would like to see?

Originally Posted by Wetts11

Are we not weeding out the variation in wild populations to fit them to our preferences? Much like we have done with dogs and various other forms of pets?

Possibly, but mostly when we don't have reliable or complete information on where an animal came from. Couple that with the fact that interbreeding is part of the natural history of dart frogs and there is little harm in doing so.

Originally Posted by Wetts11

From what I have seen and what I have been tought I stick to the fact that we as humans do what we do, and we do it well. We insist on destroying natural walks of life and bending them to our needs or desires. So when you talk about seperating based on boldness or based on coloration or size, are you simply not trying to breed an entire "blond hair, blue eyes" population? The fact is you are merely selecting traits you desire and breeding them in hopes that they will remain true. Which in my OPINION is taking the "natural effect, survival or the fittest" out of the equation.

Nope, not trying to breed a "superior race" of frogs, just trying to keep the animals close to how they are found in the wild. As far as "natural effect, survival of the fittest", the fact that we have these animals in tanks pretty much rules that out.

[Marty71]

I've been sitting on the sidelines watching this thread closely in the hopes of seeing some kind of consensus reached. I am a year into the hobby, but I have taken a liking to both of these frogs and currently have 3 GO's from SNDF, 6 GO's (Saurian line) from a board member, 3 GO's (Saurian Line) from another board member, 4 Regina's from Aaron, and 2 GO's from Shawn. Most of these frogs are 3-9 months old, so I am not in a position to make any type of detailed comparison but...

From what I have seen there are differences as Shawn mentioned. With my frogs, the GO's from Saurian's line all have black backs with orange circling and ending on their heads. The Regina's have much more yellow, and don't have the clearly defined black backs. Ironaically neither of them have much orange, but are more a mix of yellows, blues and blacks.

I would love to see feedback from some of the people that have helped define these frogs, specifically Sean, Patrick and SNDF. A quick search of this topic will show 3-4 times this has come up with no consensus. I am not naive enough to think that the debate would be solved here, but as a relatively new hobbyist it would be nice to know if mixing SNDF GO's with Saurain line GO's is a no no, which at this point i believe it is....

[a Vertigo Guy]

Of both lines of GOs I have (One from Charles and one from Sean), Charles has more blue than Seans which to me looks more the "classic" Regina. BUT then again Charles' GOs dont have as much blue as Nabors or Stewarts GOs...

[rmelancon]

Originally Posted by Marty71

... I am not naive enough to think that the debate would be solved here, but as a relatively new hobbyist it would be nice to know if mixing SNDF GO's with Saurain line GO's is a no no, which at this point i believe it is....

I think mixing one "line" of GO with another "line" of GO should be encouraged. What is in question is mixing GO with Regina's, more specifically if GO and Regina are in fact from the same population of frogs in the wild.

[Marty71]

Guess that's my point. If I mix GO's from a Saurian line with GO's from a SNDF/Stewart line technically I am not breeding unrelated pairs, I am mixing GO's and Regina's since the Saurain and Stewart definitions are opposite.

[KeroKero]

Note on the color - as Shawn's frogs can prove, these frogs can be very orange... give them naturose and they'll show their true colors

[sports_doc]

Oh I have a great example of that too, I just need to pull them out for pics.

I picked up an adult Regina female from another frogger and the patterns are correct, but the frog is yellow. My other breeders are orange, but I'd attribute that to long term supplementation.

Shawn

[Don1]

i found this on this site they are labled as the same morph
3rd one down???
http://www.tropical-experience.nl/in...d=16&Itemid=27

Thanks Brendan.

[Marcus]

I haven't read everything yet after my reply..just a quick reply.

Mark Pepper already gave some information in his reply that i would write also..the part about Ruud Schouten exported the Regina's to the USA and a new name was created 'Giant Orange'.

@Rob,
Yes i was at the same place where the indians collected the Alanis. We collected a lot of animals to observe. There were intens coloured animals and less intens coloured..let we say yellow (Alanis) and light orange (which some people call InferAlanis). They all live mixed through a wide area.

...more is coming

[Corpus Callosum]

If the above is true as far as original populations, I wonder how much of the current differences we see in the hobby are due to unintentional selective breeding by hobbyists who keep them separate.