Quarantining later on in life

[gturmindright]

Okay, I never got a fecal done. I'm going to have one done shortly and if my frogs end up having something which they probably will I will be quarantining them while I treat them. Has anyone done this? It makes sense to me to take them out of their small tank full of their feces and put them in separate containers that I can change weekly as I treat them. Has anyone done this? Is this okay?

[defaced]

Is there a reason to have the fecal done in the first place? Are your frogs exhibiting problems? There is research to suggest that animals have some "natural" load of parasites that the body can live happily with. So you may very well find something, but is that something really a problem? IMO, without some other indicators, I don't think it is.

Having put my two cents out there, yes remove them from their regular tank and treat them as if you just got them into your collection. Put them in a temp tank and all that good junk.

[KeroKero]

There are multiple opinions on this, but generally it seems to be that you want to get fecals done when you first get your frogs, and if your frogs develop problems (or other frogs in your collection do and you're making sure the other frogs don't have the same problem - assuming its a parasite).

You'll want to put them in a temp tank to grab the fecal, it shouldn't take more than a couple hours to get what you need (then they got back in their tank, they don't stay in there longer than needed!). Talk to your vet about the exact proceed they want done to get the most accurate fecal you can - the fresher the better, and the cleaner the environment it was given in the better.

Ok, so say something comes up, and you need to treat it. So say you move them out of the tank they're in, and put them in a treatment tank, then you treat them (all clean!) and then... what? Put them back in the tank they were in before? You'll just reintroduce them into the environment that has whatever baddie they had present... they will just get reinfected.

If they have something that is worrisome you need to figure out if you can somehow treat the tank (if only this was as easy as fish tanks) or you'll have to rip it up, disinfect it, and start over (anthing that can't be cleaned needs to be tossed).

[slaytonp]

I tend to agree with Mike. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Frogs, and most animals carry some sort of parisite load that is perfectly under control by their immune systems, and only become pathogenic if the frog (or other animal) is stressed enough to affect their immune system. If their other normal flora is disrupted--usually by some sort of shot gun antibiotic treatment that depletes the other floral competitors for space in the gut without killing the particular parasite, chaos can occur. Many parasites don't necessarily re-infect directly, but need an alternate host and have complicated life cycles. Just because a "parasite" is found in a fecal sample doesn't mean that it is pathogenic to the frog. I would say, if your frogs appear active and healthy, leave them the hell alone.

Here is an example in the human realm that I have observed time after time: A patient comes into the hospital with a viral pneumonia. The doctors in their ass-covering wisdom, (even though they know better) treat the patient with broad spectrum IV antibiotics, which they know full well will not touch the viral component, but if they don't do this, the patient will not think he is being fully treated and might sue. The viral pneumonia is cured because of the respiratory therapy, and other measures of hydration, etc. Then a few weeks later, the patient comes back with severe diarrhea, which is diagnosed as Clostridium difficile. Clostridium difficile is just a part of the normal gut flora in small numbers, but when antibiotics it is resistant to wipe out the competiting E. coli and other normal flora, it becomes a pathogen and causes severe, toxic problems. So then, instead of trying to simply re-establish the normal flora, the doctors use even "better" antibiotics, to wipe out the Clostridium, perhaps Vancomycin or Metroniazide. A week or so later, the patient has a fungal ear infection, and female patients also have vaginal yeast infections. So now the doctors feel they have to have to treat with fungicides. The patient's normal flora is now totally f'd up, and this can go on for years.

If there is a specific parasite or bacteria that is definitely the culprit of a sick individual, be it frog or human, has been diagnosed as such, then specific antibiotics or paracides can be used against this. But shotgunning with out specific identification and susceptibility tests is the reason we are in so much trouble now with so many scary, resistant organisms that we can't invent new antibiotics fast enough to keep up with them.

This is my particular rant. I've spent most of my 72 years as a microbiologist, and have seen the advent of penicillin, the original magical cure once for most gram positive infections such as Staph aureus, create resistant monsters of these organisms from careless misuse.

Quarantine all of your frogs separately for a couple of months to see that each is feeding and doing well and is healthy. If so, don't treat them prophylactically with anything, just add them to the collection and enjoy them.

[gturmindright]

I'll get a fecal anyway and let you know what they might have. What you were saying is my original thought. They seem fine and happy so why mess with a good thing. What threw me off was all of the posts I've read at the dart den about it. I have a new larger tank coming that I'd like to add them all to and I just wanted to see if I could eliminate anything bad before I put them in the new tank.

[defaced]

Ok, you're making sure the slate is clean before you put all of the frogs in the larger tank.

I'll admit, I'm sloppy with my cross contamination, or actually down right dangerous with it, so heed that warning. In the 9ish months it's been up and running my 75g tank has seen 75% of my collection in it at one point or another. Thus far every frog that has/is been in the tank is exhibiting normal frog behavior. Usually I only put a few in there at a time, with the max being 7 (4 Azureus and 3 Leucs) that were in there for about a month before I removed the Leucs because I noticed possible dominance problems.

My thinking is this: unless one is completely sterile with their general husbandry, the tanks have all ready been cross conaminated. The close proximity of our tanks, especially with racks, is a great case of this theory. Dane would be one of the people I know who probably don't have much/any cross contamination. He is very cautious about what he puts in his tanks and how he goes about his husbandry - rubber gloves and the whole works. What you are thinking of doing would be inline with a more cautious approach and there's noting wrong with that.

As one's collection grows, one needs to become more aware of the pathagen "game" and the risks involved. Because of the recent boom in the size of my collection, my husbandry procedures have changed and will continue to do so until I'm satisfied that I'm not shooting myself in the foot.

I guess what I'm saying is to critically analyse your plans and take actions accordingly. If that's to q-tine your collection and treat them, or to dump them, know what you're doing, why you're doing it, and how to fix it if things go awry.

[littlefrog]

I had fecals done on all five of my tanks a few months ago. The frogs that looked happiest to me had a hookworm infestation that was 'record breaking' (to paraphrase). And the frogs I was worried about were clean. Shows what I know.

Anyway, based on the recommendations of the vet, I started treating the infested frogs once a week for the last month. And they do look a hell of a lot better, so evidently I really didn't know what I was looking at.

As a molecular biologist, I know that continuous antibotic treatment is a VBT (Very Bad Thing), so I'm not going to do that. As a compromise, any new frogs I get will be de-wormed (if necessary), and I'll try to remember to check them all once a year. I don't expect to be parasite free, I don't think it is possible or, frankly, a good idea. In fact, a very popular theory about the increase in allergies and asthma in humans is that (at least in part) children are growing up in too clean an environment, and it hypersensitizes their immune system. A little immune challenge is a VGT (Very Good Thing).

[bgexotics]

I'll get a fecal anyway and let you know what they might have. What you were saying is my original thought. They seem fine and happy so why mess with a good thing. What threw me off was all of the posts I've read at the dart den about it.

Not to stir up anything but Dart Den is run by the brother of Dr. Frye who is a frog vet and makes money by charging people for fecals and medications. There have been some nasty battles on this issue here in the past especially regarding prophylactic treatment of frogs. A fecal can be done by any vet, in fact it is usually a vet tech performing the fecal. My husband and I run our own fecals as needed and work with a local vet to get any needed medications.

That being said, I have almost never had to treat a dart frog, but do this more for imported amphibians and reptiles. Working in the pet industry I have seen what overuse of mediation can do. Many fish farms have created highly resistant parasites by over-medicating their fish. I usally try to approach a problem non-medically at first by giving good care and probiotics and electrolytes. Mild dewormer is used if there are parasites present followed up with probiotic therapy to replace gut bacteria. If there is no response then I move to a stronger medication. Import animals are highly stressed when you get them and instantly treating them with meds can often be too much.

[audioandroid]

i also have the theory that if its not broke don't fix it. back and forth in quarentine and messing with them in my opinion causes more stress. unless there's a problem let them enjoy as much hands off as possible.

[slaytonp]

bgexotics: You have gone where we more cowardly "angels" have feared to tread, by pointing out that not all advice is given for strictly eleemonsynary purposes. :shock: