Repashy supplements

[jubjub47]

Do any of you that are using the Calcium plus icb also use the multivitamin? I've got both, but it sounds like most are talking about usint the calcium alone.

[Ed]

Originally Posted by jubjub47

Do any of you that are using the Calcium plus icb also use the multivitamin? I've got both, but it sounds like most are talking about usint the calcium alone.

Most of us are using in conjuction with other multivitamins as part of a rotation..

Ed

[Allen Repashy]

Hello Everyone,

Someone on my forums informed me of this thread. It is my first time to this board, but from the look of the level of the conversation here, it seems to be a pretty educated group. I have worked quite hard developing the ICB product, and been in the herp field long enough to remember when we were all using primarily bird supplements.... and things like osteo-form... many of the first herp specific supplements, where actually these products being relabeled for herp use.

I believe that the single worst thing to ever happen to the reptile supplementation was what some of us remember as the "Vitamin A" scare from the early 90's. This was an era when herp supplementation was still in it's infancy, and so was herp medicine, nutrition, and anyone who had a little success, knew how to use the new thing called 'The Internet" and a little time on there hands, could influence the masses.

This is exactly what happened when one individual blamed Vitamin A toxicity for some Chameleon problems and proclaimed their epiphany to the world.
A huge scare went through the hobby, and almost overnight, Vitamin A became taboo, and more associated with poison than a Vitamin... In response to this, a certain vitamin manufacturer created a supplement with Beta Carotene as the only "source" of Vitamin A.

It has been proven by much follow up by such organizations as the ARAV, that Vitamin A was not the cause for the original scare, and it was also noticed that there have been nearly zero documented cases of Vitamin A toxicity in reptiles in modern times. (per communication with Dr. Scot Stahl, DVM)

As most of you know here, there is a huge difference between Vitamin A, and Carotenoids. And as someone mentioned in this thread, the use of the term Retinol is most applicable in the description of Vitamin A in its preformed state.

Beta Carotene CAN be converted to Retinol in the body by some animals, but not all, the classic example I use for comparison is true carnivores such as Cats. Because Retinol ONLY comes from animal sources, Cats have completely lost the ability to convert plant carotenoids into retinol. They don't eat plants, so over time, they just lost this ability because they were not eating plant matter. Instead, they assimilate retinol from the animals they consume. This is the single reason that it is impossible to feed Cats on a true vegan diet. Cat's can not live at all without Retinol in their diet, and id doesn't take long for deficiency to occur if fed a diet without Retinol.

Herbivores are at the other end of the scale, and they must produce Retinol from Carotenoids to survive. True herbivores CAN do just fine on a retinol free diet if given enough caroteniods. (which is not easy to do with most commercial diets, or a veggie diet that is not rich in these nutrients. Because herbivores convert carotenoids to retinol, they still have the ability to process dietary retinol, and it is a part of all commercial herbivore diets and supplements I have found outside the herp world. Carotenoids are some of the most unstable nutrients, and due to oxidation, it is difficult to formulate anything but a fresh diet and depend on their availability as precursors to retinol. There are many more benefits that carotenoids contribute, such as pigmentation..... and many other benefits that are just beginning to be studied.. The beta carotene that is used in quality supplements is a micro-encapsulated product that surrounds the carotenoids in a fat soluble shield that acts as a barrier to oxidation.

So where does that leave us when it comes to omnivores? They do seem to have the ability to convert carotenoids to Retinol, but not enough work has been done to compare the efficiency to that of herbivores...... And Insectivores, specifically reptiles..... this is one of the most understudied topics there is..... There is no financial gain to study them like there is in something like a chicken that is a huge agricultural treasure.

Veterinary feedback, as well as the observations of open minded breeders and keepers, is currently questioning the ability and efficiency of true insectivores to convert carotenoids to Retinol. The cases of documented Vitamin A deficiency in insectivorous reptiles are quite common, near the level of Vitamin D deficiency cases. And with there being no downside to including Retinol in a diet or supplement, there is absolutely no reason to try and feed an insectivore a Retinol free diet. There might be some ability to convert carotenoids, but with the documented cases of Retinol toxicity at near zero, why would you eliminate it?

I believe the best approach is to include moderate levels of both retinol and carotenoids. Caroteniods ARE important, but for many reasons other than their ability to be converted to Retinol. Retinol is SAFE as a supplement, and toxicity is more a fear than a reality unless someone is using pure retinol as a supplement in high amounts.

Wow, I just logged in to say hello, and wrote a freaking novel...... anyways, I welcome any feedback or comments, and hope some of my ramblings have made sense to you readers.

Cheers, Allen Repashy

BTW, I am not writing this just to promote my stuff, I am writing it because I do believe that everyone should use a supplement that uses includes Retinol. I don't care if it is my product or not, but do yourself a favor, and if you have trouble with spindly leg, tadpoles that just don't get past a certain size, I believe a lot of these problems can be connected to retinol deficiency. Just don't be afraid of retinol, even in what many herpers consider high amounts..... ALL of these conceptions are based on folklore and misinformation. Listen to your animals, not your critics!

[jubjub47]

Thanks for the information Allen. I've just started using your product and so far like. I'm curious what is in it that causes the sweet smell. I can't get over how tasty it makes the flies smell.

[ChrisK]

Hi Allen and thanks for posting! I started the Calcium plus ICB into my rotation because one of my rarer pairs of pumilio breed like crazy but the eggs always go bad after a couple of days - I also started adding spirulina to my ff medium so hopefully this combo will make some kind of difference - the pumilio (and all my other frogs so far) are obligate egg feeders (the tads only eat eggs provided by the mother) so parental health is probably a huge factor - your stuff hopefully might be a ray of light

[Allen Repashy]

Thanks Chris,

I use a small amount of natural flavors in a honey carrier. only a couple of % points of the content... a little banana, a little rose, and a little strawberry... I don't think what it smells like really matters much, but do believe that a strong smell of any kind seems to trigger a response in many species..... including those that would never think if eating fruit.. it is just the sensort stimulation that triggers an investigation that I believe makes it attract insectivores and other non fruit eating species. Leopard geckos just love it.... for no natural reason, that's for sure.

[Ed]

Hi Allen,

Some questions and comments.. (I do use your supplement and am working on getting it used at work..)

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

This is exactly what happened when one individual blamed Vitamin A toxicity for some Chameleon problems and proclaimed their epiphany to the world.
A huge scare went through the hobby, and almost overnight, Vitamin A became taboo, and more associated with poison than a Vitamin... In response to this, a certain vitamin manufacturer created a supplement with Beta Carotene as the only "source" of Vitamin A.

I think this was the tipping point but there was also a lot of problems due to the form of MBD caused by oversupplementating preformed vitamin A which prevent adequate D3 uptake which lent power to that issue.

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

and it was also noticed that there have been nearly zero documented cases of Vitamin A toxicity in reptiles in modern times. (per communication with Dr. Scot Stahl, DVM)

Allen, there may be few documented cases of toxicity in the course of a normal diet and normal supplementation but there is a lot of data on toxicity of preformed A on reptiles (see for example Mader et al; 2006; Reptile Medicine and Surgery; Saunders, Canada) going back for more than a decade.The lack of toxicity in the course normal oral supplementation may be an artifact due to the lack of readily available supplements containing preformed A and not due to the safety of preformed A. The toxicity problem is also seperate from the issue with artificially caused hypovitaminosis of D3 due to competition between preformed A, D3 and E.

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

Beta Carotene CAN be converted to Retinol in the body by some animals, but not all, the classic example I use for comparison is true carnivores such as Cats. Because Retinol ONLY comes from animal sources, Cats have completely lost the ability to convert plant carotenoids into retinol. They don't eat plants, so over time, they just lost this ability because they were not eating plant matter. Instead, they assimilate retinol from the animals they consume. This is the single reason that it is impossible to feed Cats on a true vegan diet. Cat's can not live at all without Retinol in their diet, and id doesn't take long for deficiency to occur if fed a diet without Retinol.

At this time, there is some significant doubt on the prior studies about beta carotene conversion in Felids see A Survey of Serum and Dietary Carotenoids in Captive Wild Animals -- Slifka et al. 129 (2): 380 -- Journal of Nutrition as Felids have been shown to accumulate beta carotene and that the prior methods of assay may have missed some ability to convert at least some of the beta carotene to retinol..

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

Herbivores are at the other end of the scale, and they must produce Retinol from Carotenoids to survive. True herbivores CAN do just fine on a retinol free diet if given enough caroteniods. (which is not easy to do with most commercial diets, or a veggie diet that is not rich in these nutrients. Because herbivores convert carotenoids to retinol, they still have the ability to process dietary retinol, and it is a part of all commercial herbivore diets and supplements I have found outside the herp world.

The preformed A is added to herbivore diets because if the animal becomes deficient in A then the absorbtion of beta carotene is disrupted and the addition of preformed A is an effective method to prevent this issue. I had thought I had read in a publication that deficiencies in A can also interfere with uptake and bioconversion but could not find it and did not want to cite it without supporting data.

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

The beta carotene that is used in quality supplements is a micro-encapsulated product that surrounds the carotenoids in a fat soluble shield that acts as a barrier to oxidation.

Allen, is there any retention studies done on this to show that this is effective in the reptile supplements or is this claim based on premixed results? The reason I ask this is a prior study done by the AZA Nutritional Advisory Group showed that most supplements were deficient in one or more ingredients including at least one prominently used in the past lacking all preformed A.. (See Crissey; Susan D.; Ward, Ann W.; Maslanka, Mike T.; 2001; Nutrient content of nutritional supplements available for use in captive lizard feeding programs; Proceedings of the American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA) Nutrition Advisory Group Fourth Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition).

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

So where does that leave us when it comes to omnivores? They do seem to have the ability to convert carotenoids to Retinol, but not enough work has been done to compare the efficiency to that of herbivores...... And Insectivores, specifically reptiles..... this is one of the most understudied topics there is..... There is no financial gain to study them like there is in something like a chicken that is a huge agricultural treasure.

There is some significant information out there that shows that anurans can convert beta carotene but may have high tissue demands on it (see http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...3&blobtype=pdf ) and there is evidence that tadpoles utilize a seperate isomer of preformed vitamin A than do metamorphs and adults (see http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...3&blobtype=pdf) so supplementing preformed vitamin A may not be the correct path to resolving issues with tadpoles and new metamorphs.

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

And with there being no downside to including Retinol in a diet or supplement, there is absolutely no reason to try and feed an insectivore a Retinol free diet. There might be some ability to convert carotenoids, but with the documented cases of Retinol toxicity at near zero, why would you eliminate it?

See my comments above on preformed vitamin A and known risk.

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

I believe the best approach is to include moderate levels of both retinol and carotenoids. Caroteniods ARE important, but for many reasons other than their ability to be converted to Retinol. Retinol is SAFE as a supplement, and toxicity is more a fear than a reality unless someone is using pure retinol as a supplement in high amounts.

Moderate levels are fine but one has to also consider interactions between D3 and preformed A. Also there are differences in absorbtion of carotenoids so what may be appear to be a moderate level in one species may be insufficient in another.

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

BTW, I am not writing this just to promote my stuff, I am writing it because I do believe that everyone should use a supplement that uses includes Retinol. I don't care if it is my product or not, but do yourself a favor, and if you have trouble with spindly leg, tadpoles that just don't get past a certain size, I believe a lot of these problems can be connected to retinol deficiency. Just don't be afraid of retinol, even in what many herpers consider high amounts..... ALL of these conceptions are based on folklore and misinformation. Listen to your animals, not your critics!

I use you supplement..

Ed

[Rain_Frog]

Allen, what will be done about naturose added to the supplement? Naturose has been discontinued for animal use and is for human use only now.

[elscotto]

I'm also now using Repashy calcium plus icb, in rotation with a couple of other supplements and so far am very happy with it. One additional advantage I think it has is not only does it coat the feeder insects better, it also seems (by judging visually) to stay on the insects much, much longer than the other supplements.
-Scott

[Allen Repashy]

Hi Ed,

Great counterpoints!.. I am at the Anaheim show, so will try to get some time Sunday or Monday to pick this back up....

Allen