Dendrocare by itself?

[LittleDip]

After doing endless reading of post about supplements and what is good- I hear that Dendrocare is a good supplement.

My question is can i use this supplement alone or do I still need Herptivite multivitamin and or Rep-Cal?

i know mixing supplements is not good, but rather use at every other feeding..just a little confused..how many to use and which ones..

Any help would be appreciated, thank you.

[sounddrive]

i use all three on alternating days. dendrocare is good but if used alone i as well as others have noticed that it causes seizures especially in pumilio.

[atlfrog]

I only use Dendrocare for my dart frogs, and no problems have occurred for me. It all depends on how it is used and what other items you use to feed your frogs that have a good nutritional value. I have more natural vitamins on top of Dendrocare I use. Of course different frogs have different reactions as well. BUT, I use it at least every other feeding. Dendrocare is specifically designed for dart frogs. Although Rep-Cal products are awesome, in my opinion the supplement is more designed for reptiles. I know what it says on the package and I promote Rep-Cal in my new book, but Dendrocare is designed for one type of animal. There are several things people can use, and Dendrocare is just one type of dart frog vitamin. It is expensive, but if you can't afford $15.99 (not including shipping) for a small container, about 6-9 months depending on usage (A pinch at a time.). Then Rep-cal products is a great alternative. There are other tricks in this trade, but for beginners, I would just stick with one type of vitamin then find out more. Too much vitamin usage can kill frogs, so best to research everything. A little info is provided below and this is also where I buy mine from.

From our buddies at Blackjungle
"Dendrocare is a new vitamin and mineral supplement developed in Holland specifically for use with poison dart frogs. It has been developed by Chris van der Lingen, whose 30 years experience keeping and studying dart frogs has led him to produce this special blend of supplements to enhance the health of all dart frogs. When added to your frogs varied diet of insects, it aids in offering a complete nutritional balance of your frogs dietary needs. It is specially formulated to be higher in vitamin E for better breeding results, higher in vitamin D3 for prevention of bone and "small leg" disease, and lower in vitamin A to prevent vitamin poisoning. Recommended for use with every feeding by dusting the feeder insects. 100 grams. -BlackJungle"

"Edited again, because I missed some info from last post."

[LittleDip]

Thank you. Very good information. If you don't mind me asking, what is your feeding schedule like?

[atlfrog]

I feed my frogs every other day, so usually it ends up that they get fed with the vitamin every feeding, but I shorten it on other weeks. I have provided a chart below.

Week 1: S(F,V) M T(F,V) W T(F,V) F S(F,V)
Week 2: S M(F,V) T W(F) T F(FV) S
F=Feed V=Vitamin

This is for my adults only. Froglets are on different feeding schedule due to that fact they are pretty fragile. Of course this is all in my opinion.

I guess my schedule is kinda weird, but I just take the extra precaution of not feeding vitamins all the time. People probably think I am crazy for doing it like this but it is better to be safe than sorry. Besides some of the stuff I feed has good vitamins too. Feedings like what I do, should only be tempted when you know how much food will last till the next feeding. On a last note, my frogs are healthy and bright. The produce good numbers and they can be heard all the time. I think I may be doing something right! PS, so there is no misunderstandings, I love Rep-Cal products I use them everyday, they are amazing for my reptiles. I may consider using Rep-Cal for future vitamin supplementation.

[sounddrive]

i feed juvies every day only supplementing 3 out of 7 times. adult get fed every other day calcium Monday, vits Wednesday, Friday naturose, sun dendrocare.

[atlfrog]

Sounddrive has a good way as well. There are so many ways and no real wrong way, unless it is hurting the animal. Too many vitamins or not enough is obviously the wrong way. I suggest using one product, find out good reliable info on other stuff and decide what you want to do later on. Dendrocare can be that vitamin to hold you over, until you know exactly what you want to do. Just remember that there is a lot of BAD info out there, and take everything with a grain of salt. Research everything, your frogs health is all the matters.

[LittleDip]

Thank you both for the valuable information. The schedules help out A LOT!
I will pick up both Rep-Cal and Herptivite and will eventually pick up some Dendrocare online.

I was giving wrong information about my frogs supplements from a local reptile place so i just want to get the right information and start a nutritional schedule for them.

[sounddrive]

this is definitely the right place to get your info. there are allot of very experienced froggers here. most pet shops and such have no clue what they are doing when it comes to darts.

[Ed]

Originally Posted by atlfrog

I have more natural vitamins on top of Dendrocare I use.

Can you clarify this statement? I am curious as to what you mean by more natural vitamins and in what proportions.

Originally Posted by atlfrog

Of course different frogs have different reactions as well. BUT, I use it at least every other feeding.

Depending on what you mean, I'm not sure I agree with this statement as vitamin requirements are highly conserved in all vertebrate species examined to date. There may be some requirements for slight variations (such as using retinol/retinioc acid instead of beta carotene) but outside of that the needs are highly conserved.

Originally Posted by atlfrog

about 6-9 months depending on usage (A pinch at a time.)

This is something that is a potential problem... this is a mixed vitamin supplement and as such it has been shown that these supplements catalyze a more rapid breakdown of the fat soluble vitamins (A, D3, and E) than those supplements that do not keep all of the fat soluble vitamins together. The current recommendations in the literature is to discard the supplement six months after opening due to the change in the ratios of A to D3 and E from this oxidation of the vitamins. If the supplements are continued to use then hypo vitaminosis of some of these vitamins is a real risk.

Based on the circumstancial evidence I think this is why people have seen this as an issue with some frogs such as pumilio. If the supplements have had an increased rate of degredation of the vitamins such as sitting on a hot tarmack for hours or in a hot truck for hours then the rate of oxidation is increased (as these are not packed in a neutral atmosphere). This can then lead to hypovitaminosis D3 which results in seizures and the other symptoms seen in pumilio.

Originally Posted by atlfrog

Then Rep-cal products is a great alternative. There are other tricks in this trade, but for beginners, I would just stick with one type of vitamin then find out more. Too much vitamin usage can kill frogs, so best to research everything. A little info is provided below and this is also where I buy mine from.

Too little vitamin supplementation will also kill the frogs.
One of the things that has becoming apparent is that many of the frogs in captivity have minimal or insufficient levels of retinol as it appears that they do not convert beta carotene as efficiently as we would have hoped. Dendrocare does have retinol in it but the level may be too low to supply all of the retinol needs for the frogs (this is also too low in Herptivite and virtually all of the supplements available at least in the USA.) It is currently believed that this is a major source of egg death in long breeding pairs and may be a major contributor to SLS and potentially immune suppression in the frogs.

In addition to those issues, vitamins for animals manufactured in the USA do not have the same strict manufacturing requirements as for human vitamins and at least one study and analysis of those supplements (years ago) had virtually all of the supplements failing to meet the levels reported on the labels.

Because of these issues, it is better to use several supplements including one that contains vitamin A as retinol in a ratio of 10 to 1 to 0.1 (or as noted in the literature the ratio should be 100 to 10 to 1 they just don't like the decimel) to meet the needs of the amphibians. That said I do use Dendrocare in rotation with some other supplements to add a source of retinol to the frogs but I am also adding in other supplements that contain retinol.

Some comments,

Ed