Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

[Rich Frye]

How do we include pros if there are none known for the darts?
And how can it be "balanced" , if there are no know benefits to the darts?

[ian]

If one has a larger tank (100g plus) a pro would be more diverse plant selection and hiding spots for frogs. It just couldn't be you can't mix because of ----reason. Don't get me wrong, i don't really go for mixed tanks but if someone wants to do it, all we can do is warn them and give them the information.

I think more of a suggested "pro/con" is the idea here.

Why is it people want a mixed tank? What really compells them to this idea? What are we as hobbyists and caretakers of PDF's doing to seed a notion of mixed tanks? Could zoos and aquariums be contributing to this idea with big setups full or 5 or 6 different species?

I think we need to look at these questions and address the problems before someone gets this idea. I mean, I went down to the Newport Aquarium in Kentucky and saw their mixed species tank. Hundreds of people come in and see that everyday and watch the "pretty frogs" getting along nicely in the mock environment. After seeing that, what do you think they do? Google dart frogs and find they are available for sale. Most people don't research even if they say they do and jump head first into things. This can lead to mixing.

So do we as preservers of these amphibians have a right to tell zoos what to do? We can suggest things but most likely our cries will fall on deaf ears.

I just wanted to throw that out there because I have seen and heard first hand, people at zoos and aquariums do this.

Ian

[Rich Frye]

A pro to mixing is a more diverse plant selection and hiding spots?
I know why zoos, aquariums, amd museums mix. For the WOW factor , and thus $ through the doors.
But what are the benefits to mixing for the darts?
If anyone can name one, lets go on.

[scott r]

If you wanted to write a caresheet of just your opinions why didn't you just say so?

I don't see why you are opposed to it being balanced and opinion free as stated by several members in this thread. Two of whom I consider to be well respected members of the board that don't mix but feel the info should be made available to try and reduce loss.

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by scott r

If you wanted to write a caresheet of just your opinions why didn't you just say so?

I don't see why you are opposed to it being balanced and opinion free as stated by several members in this thread. Two of whom I consider to be well respected members of the board that don't mix but feel the info should be made available to try and reduce loss.

I already said I would write a ten page post if needed Scott. But,
What I want is for you, or anybody to answer my questions posed. Can you? Need I go back and ask them all again?
Again, how can it be balanced when 90+% don't belive in it, and 0% can give one single benefit to the darts? Is it that some are more concerned with what they want and like, as opposed to what is really safe/good/beneficial for our darts?
Please post your dart beneficial experiences (yours personal) with mixing.
And I write facts, you should be at least able to refute opinions.

[ian]

Preventing loss is the key in mixed and non-mixed tanks. That's is why we go to great lengths to sanitize and plug every hole.

I don't necessarily see diverse species of plants and more hiding spots as a key pro in a mixed tank. I just threw that out there. Seems to be that most people want to mix 2 frogs of 2 different species to allow a greater roaming range for the frogs. I do not have a mixed tank nor plan one. I'm just trying to see the world through the eyes of another.

I don't know if we will ever know if there are any benefits to the frog or not. I hate to think of how many frogs will be sacrificed to find out though.

Grassypeak had a saying in his signature that I really thought about when I first found this board. It said instead of keeping more species, do more with the species you keep. I found this to be very thought provoking. it made me ask why chance something like a mixed tank. I've lost a few frogs due to cracks in the top of my tank, I just couldn't see myself mixing and loosing more. So enough of my rambling

[insularexotics]

OK. so I'll take Rich's bait for now. But I will take a slightly different tack than I'm sure Rich meant. By "benefit to the frogs" I am looking at the frog species as a group. Not the individual specimens in the tanks. The major benefit to the frogs of having a mixed-species tank is that it inspires people to more greatly appreciate the beauty of these animals and want to conserve them. It may even inspire a few more hobbyists to get into it than one or three single-species exhibits would.

Rich says that zoos mix to increase WOW factor and I'll give you that. But I strongly disagree with the $$ comment! If you look at any exit survey of zoo/aquarium visitors, darts don't make the top 10, let alone 5 exhibits in popularity. Charismatic megafauna are the big draws for gate. Darts are a pretty filler that a few people will take the time to look at. Maximizing color and diversity helps increase visitor retention time and allows you to get a message to more people.

In short, you have to captivate the public to educate them so that they are inspired to conserve. From a zoo perspective, this is the crux of the matter. Is it worth a few individual specimens being stressed by a mixed-species exhibit to inspire the next Rich Frye, Tor Linbo or Ron Gagliardo? is it worth it to inspire someone with money to throw some at conservation? If all of the specimens are captive-bred, there is no harm to the rainforest. Most zoos do not breed them (for space, budget and other reasons), so there is little real danger of creating hybrids.

From a hobbyist standpoint, there probably is not a benefit to the individual specimens. But any thread here should NOT come across as preachy, snobbish or otherwise derogatory. Not only will this not stop people from mixing frogs, but it could cost you the next great hobbyist, researcher or environmental champion. And that would be an unforgivable mistake on this community's part! Political correctness is the order of the day IMO, both in the thread to point at, as well as the people doing the pointing.

Just my thoughts.
Rich Terrell
Insular Exotics

[roxrgneiss]

Originally Posted by Rich Frye

I already said I would write a ten page post if needed Scott. But,
What I want is for you, or anybody to answer my questions posed. Can you? Need I go back and ask them all again?
Again, how can it be balanced when 90+% don't belive in it, and 0% can give one single benefit to the darts? Is it that some are more concerned with what they want and like, as opposed to what is really safe/good/beneficial for our darts?
Please post your dart beneficial experiences (yours personal) with mixing.
And I write facts, you should be at least able to refute opinions.

Has a study done on the deleterious effects of mixed species tanks? This would require many mixed tanks to be set up and observed. I don't think the benefits or negatives we come up on this forum can be viewed as fact, especially from a few personal experiences (with mixed tanks), which would not be quantitative data. I feel that there are only opinions of the matter, and like all others, there will constantly be two sides to the coin.

If another care sheet is composed regarding mixed tanks, it would be nice to see it unbiased; presenting the possible negatives along with recommendations for those who choose to do so. An advisement not to attempt mixing as it could be harmful to the inhabitants for 'blank' reasons and requires 'blank' experience would be fair though, for educational purposes.

I don't advocate mixed tanks - I am simply attempting to offer a broadened perspective.


Mike

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by insularexotics

OK. so I'll take Rich's bait for now. But I will take a slightly different tack than I'm sure Rich meant. By "benefit to the frogs" I am looking at the frog species as a group. Not the individual specimens in the tanks. The major benefit to the frogs of having a mixed-species tank is that it inspires people to more greatly appreciate the beauty of these animals and want to conserve them. It may even inspire a few more hobbyists to get into it than one or three single-species exhibits would.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
(Sound of treblehook in gill, officially a snag...)
So, we need to have a mixed species tank to inspire people? And that first glance into our hobby is that of exactly what the vast majority is trying to stop. Quality over quantity.

Originally Posted by insularexotics

Rich says that zoos mix to increase WOW factor and I'll give you that. But I strongly disagree with the $$ comment! If you look at any exit survey of zoo/aquarium visitors, darts don't make the top 10, let alone 5 exhibits in popularity. Charismatic megafauna are the big draws for gate. Darts are a pretty filler that a few people will take the time to look at. Maximizing color and diversity helps increase visitor retention time and allows you to get a message to more people.

Simple. WOW factor = interest. Interest= people in the door=$. No interest, no dart exhibit. In this day and age the one thing we can all agree upon is supply and demand, and the $ it invovles.

Originally Posted by insularexotics

In short, you have to captivate the public to educate them so that they are inspired to conserve. From a zoo perspective, this is the crux of the matter. Is it worth a few individual specimens being stressed by a mixed-species exhibit to inspire the next Rich Frye, Tor Linbo or Ron Gagliardo? is it worth it to inspire someone with money to throw some at conservation? If all of the specimens are captive-bred, there is no harm to the rainforest. Most zoos do not breed them (for space, budget and other reasons), so there is little real danger of creating hybrids.

Educate exactly how Rich? They exist? Sorry if I am "preachy", but my education to those getting into the hobby is exactly the opposite of what most zoos and such are presenting the public. If you wish to condone this and justify it as looking to have cash thrown towards conservation and the like, and getting new hobbyists from that WOW factor, I'm not buying it.

Originally Posted by insularexotics

From a hobbyist standpoint, there probably is not a benefit to the individual specimens. But any thread here should NOT come across as preachy, snobbish or otherwise derogatory. Not only will this not stop people from mixing frogs, but it could cost you the next great hobbyist, researcher or environmental champion. And that would be an unforgivable mistake on this community's part! Political correctness is the order of the day IMO, both in the thread to point at, as well as the people doing the pointinJust my thoughts.
Rich Terrell
Insular Exotics

I would hate to scare away the next great guru from this hobby. But I dare to say that next great guru will probably be able to stand up to a simpleton like me. I'm not worried they are slipping away. Quite the opposite.
If you care to address, bait taken and all, the pointed questions many have avoided, such as yardsticks to be used as "success sticks" and benefits , again other than to people, then I am all ears. Holding hands, hugging, and air kissing to be done @ MWFF , after the first beer is cracked. WI guys, try and out draw us this year...

Rich

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by roxrgneiss

Has a study done on the deleterious effects of mixed species tanks? This would require many mixed tanks to be set up and observed. I don't think the benefits or negatives we come up on this forum can be viewed as fact, especially from a few personal experiences (with mixed tanks), which would not be quantitative data. I feel that there are only opinions of the matter, and like all others, there will constantly be two sides to the coin.

If another care sheet is composed regarding mixed tanks, it would be nice to see it unbiased; presenting the possible negatives along with recommendations for those who choose to do so. An advisement not to attempt mixing as it could be harmful to the inhabitants for 'blank' reasons and requires 'blank' experience would be fair though, for educational purposes.

I don't advocate mixed tanks - I am simply attempting to offer a broadened perspective.


Mike

I'll simply ask you to point out an opinion I state vs. fact. If you can tell me where me opinion is swaying any fact here I'll drop out of this thread now.
I post factual , personal experience about mixing, vs. those that have never mixed . Facts such as, no aggression, no breeding, no outward signs of stress, and on and on. From animals properly tested/possibly treated/quarantined. You know, facts and such.