Line Breeding

[porkchop48]

When it come to breeding frogs how important is the line breeding?

I dont meaning breeding for certain traits. I mean breeding only frogs from one persons lines to that line.

What establishes a line?

Does breeding a leucomela from AAA line with a leucomela from XXX line is that inbreeding?

[puckplaya32]

Most of the original lines are determined by an import, these are the lines that should be maintained because most of these frogs are site specific, believed to be site(local) specific, or were imported from europe and in that case their origin is usually unknown. Using peoples names as lines tends to get inaccurate because people start calling a line of frogs based of the person they purchased them from, when they should only be called the line based off the person who originally imported them. The danger in crossing lines is mixing frogs from known origins with those from unknown sites, than you would lose the pure blood lines that came in. The only sure site specific frogs are through importations like INIBCO, and UE, where as the rest of the true lines are named after their original breeder. None of them should be crossed

[earthfrog]

What he said. Generally, keeping to the lines ensures that the frogs are only bred with others whose ancestors were obtained from a specific locality in the rainforest.
Sometimes with different lines, even though they are the same species, you have one line, AAA, from a pocket in one part of the rainforest, and another line, BBB, from a pocket miles away. Crossing these two would destroy any subtle, but significant to the hobby, characteristics that are indigenous to the locales from whence they originally came.
If you can ask the originator of the line where he/she collected them, and if they have only ever collected that species from one location, and you find another line where this situation is analogous, then what you are asking is remotely possible. This is a lot of trouble, though, and the odds that this would be the case are slim to none (I have already tried this route when I was a new frogger---did not get a clear answer, but I did get some good conversation). If you want more genetic diversity, simply get two frogs from the same line but from different breeders.

[Woodsman]

Breeding only frogs that are from the same "line" ensures that (over time), small genetic mutations will become additive and (probably) injurious to the frogs. This is akin to only breeding male and female puppies from the same litter, generation after generation. They quickly become inbred and prone to many genetic abnormalities.

If you get your frogs from the same line, only from different breeders, it's like breeding cousins rather than siblings (which amounts to almost the same thing). It is still a very shallow gene pool to be working with.

It is a much better practice to consider breeding frogs together from several known lines (from the same locality), but imported at different times (something I am trying to accomplish with the matecho tinctorius morph right now). The problem is that there is often very little to no locality data associated with the frogs (at least in D. tinctorius).

Take care, Richard in Staten Island.

[bobberly1]

Line is a word in the pet hobby with far too many definitions.

A line should be a locale of a species that breeds together in the wild.

People often make lines of recieved WC frogs to err on the side of caution in keeping the frogs pure. They may not know if they are the only ones with animals from that gene pool, but make sure they don't just label them "nominat" and have them get lost into the melting pot of normal-looking locales.

Inbreeding means breeding the same animals from the same gene pool until they don't have enough genetic diversity, but I think I understand what you mean. Not trying to sound elitist, just thought I'd inform you of that. When you breed different lines together, you're usually combining genetics that wouldn't breed in the wild, definitely a bad thing. However, in certain cases such as with INIBICO imis, one can confirm that the different lines all have the same genetics, they just originate from different imports. Confusing stuff, I wish everyone would use collection and site numbers like Understory Enterprises and the killifish hobby.

[porkchop48]

So if I get an Azureus from XXX line and a Azureus from BBB line I should not breed them together?

Here is my problem and if it makes me a bad " frogger" so be it. I have some frogs that I do not know their specific lines. I am not talking some high end pumilios, etc. I am talking azureus, luecs, etc. What do I do in that situation? Especially when some one ask me what line they are. I have not a clue what line my Si tricolors are. SHould I seperate them so they do not breed?

[earthfrog]

Originally Posted by Woodsman

Breeding only frogs that are from the same "line" ensures that (over time), small genetic mutations will become additive and (probably) injurious to the frogs. This is akin to only breeding male and female puppies from the same litter, generation after generation. They quickly become inbred and prone to many genetic abnormalities.

If you get your frogs from the same line, only from different breeders, it's like breeding cousins rather than siblings (which amounts to almost the same thing). It is still a very shallow gene pool to be working with.

It is a much better practice to consider breeding frogs together from several known lines (from the same locality), but imported at different times (something I am trying to accomplish with the matecho tinctorius morph right now). The problem is that there is often very little to no locality data associated with the frogs (at least in D. tinctorius).

Take care, Richard in Staten Island.

I agree with that. My problem, too, has been finding the locality information, and I think that those who began each line should make that readily available so that we can have a better chance of avoiding genetic abnormalities. I tried for quite awhile to find locality info on Alex Sens' line for the D. Imitator and also for the Nabors' line. What I was told was sketchy at best---there were no 'hard records'.
I do the best I can with what I have...

[earthfrog]

Originally Posted by porkchop48

So if I get an Azureus from XXX line and a Azureus from BBB line I should not breed them together?

Here is my problem and if it makes me a bad " frogger" so be it. I have some frogs that I do not know their specific lines. I am not talking some high end pumilios, etc. I am talking azureus, luecs, etc. What do I do in that situation? Especially when some one ask me what line they are. I have not a clue what line my Si tricolors are. SHould I seperate them so they do not breed?

I would say until things get more organized in that regard, keep them separate by lines. The 'trend' back in 1980s was to breed across different lines to improve genetic diversity, and someone who originated a line told me that same philosophy recently, but most others will tell you not to cross lines these days.

[porkchop48]

Originally Posted by earthfrog

I would say until things get more organized in that regard, keep them separate by lines. The 'trend' back in 1980s was to breed across different lines to improve genetic diversity, and someone who originated a line told me that same philosophy recently, but most others will tell you not to cross lines these days.

I can not seperate by lines if I do not know them.
I do not know the lines of my azureus, leucs, tricolors, etc.. Are you saying I should not breed them?

[stemcellular]

Originally Posted by porkchop48

I can not seperate by lines if I do not know them.
I do not know the lines of my azureus, leucs, tricolors, etc.. Are you saying I should not breed them?

I disagree. I think you should make the effort when locales are known (i.e. don't cross INIBICO and Tor lines, etc.) but when they are not (in your case) just do what you can to avoid hybridization (ie. don't breed SI's with highland tricolors) and sibling breeding, when possible. Personally, I think line breeding is good in some circumstances, but can be a bit overexercised in the hobby.