planning a large vivarium

I have a 230 gallon 3 foot tall hex tank that I'm planning on building into a vivarium.

I have zero experience in keeping arrow frogs or any frog for that matter besides local species.

I'm wondering if it's possible to keep more than one species in an enclosure this large or would I be risking hybridization? Will dendros crossbreed?

Also, it has been suggested to me that an enclosure this big would present a problem in feeding the frogs. Anyone want to elaborate? Or better yet, does anyone have an enclosure this big that they keep arrow frogs in?

[froglady]

moneymike,

We often advise our customers to start much smaller. In a tank that large you are less likely to see your frogs and therefore less likely to notice if a problem occurs.

Yes darts can and do crossbreed. Almost everyone will tell you to keep each tank species / morph specific. Cross breeding is looked upon as being very unethical in dart frogs. I have 3 or 4 cross bred dart frogs in my frog room. I purchased them to get them off of the market. They do breed but the eggs are never allowed to develop. They are very pretty frogs. I just don't want frogs on the market that may be mistaken as 'pure'. We actually have a photo of a Dwarf Cobalt and one of these crosses side by side and it's very difficult to tell the difference. I'll try to post it in the next few days.

The problem with the feeding in a tank that large is that it is such a large area the frogs probably would have a difficult time finding their food.

For a beginner I would really recommend a 10 or 20 gallon tank. Then you are better able to learn how to maintain that enviroment or mini ecosystem. You also learn about the frogs more because you are able to watch them more. When you get that under you belt and you feel confident with your darts. Work your way up to the bigger tank.

Originally Posted by moneymike

I have a 230 gallon 3 foot tall hex tank that I'm planning on building into a vivarium.

I have zero experience in keeping arrow frogs or any frog for that matter besides local species.

I'm wondering if it's possible to keep more than one species in an enclosure this large or would I be risking hybridization? Will dendros crossbreed?

Also, it has been suggested to me that an enclosure this big would present a problem in feeding the frogs. Anyone want to elaborate? Or better yet, does anyone have an enclosure this big that they keep arrow frogs in?

[froglady]

OK -- I found the picture. Melissa posted this on Kingsnake once I think. It's pretty hard to tell the difference between the two frogs. Especially if you take into consideration the lighting differences of the two photos.

Personally I have never setup a tank that large, but check out the following link. http://www.frogworld.nl/dutchvivariums.html The tanks here are huge and they keep mulitple types of frogs together. Hope this helped.

Well I've decided it's too big for now, I'd like to get a little experience under my belt with a smaller setup. I think I'll go with one of those 18 gallon jobs that looks like a tall 10g.

I'm pretty sure I want to do a pair of D. azureus, but D. tinctorius keeps tempting me.... Either way, they're both more of a terrestrial than arboreal frog, right?

Are there dwarf varieties of bromeliads and orchids? I want to do this tank as a sort of "nano-dutch-style", complete with false bottom, water feature, flevopol background/terracing, ghost wood, plants and mosses. I don't want any huge plants.

Who are my best sources for a pair of unrelated F1 D. azureus? I'd like to breed them, and from my experience at fishkeeping, inbreeding is lame and leaves me with the uncomfortable choice of keeping deformed fish or euthanizing them...

Whats the easiest way to rear fruit flies? I don't mind doing it for the sake of keeping such beautiful frogs, but was hoping someone had a method they'd share that was as low maintenance as possible.

You can kill 2 birds with one stone and get a pair of azureus, since "D. azureus has typed out genetically to be a 'morph' of D. tinctorius." Yeager

Originally Posted by moneymike

Well I've decided it's too big for now, I'd like to get a little experience under my belt with a smaller setup. I think I'll go with one of those 18 gallon jobs that looks like a tall 10g.

I'm pretty sure I want to do a pair of D. azureus, but D. tinctorius keeps tempting me.... Either way, they're both more of a terrestrial than arboreal frog, right?

Are there dwarf varieties of bromeliads and orchids? I want to do this tank as a sort of "nano-dutch-style", complete with false bottom, water feature, flevopol background/terracing, ghost wood, plants and mosses. I don't want any huge plants.

Who are my best sources for a pair of unrelated F1 D. azureus? I'd like to breed them, and from my experience at fishkeeping, inbreeding is lame and leaves me with the uncomfortable choice of keeping deformed fish or euthanizing them...

Whats the easiest way to rear fruit flies? I don't mind doing it for the sake of keeping such beautiful frogs, but was hoping someone had a method they'd share that was as low maintenance as possible.

I think I've decided to do this in a 26 bowfront. roughly the size of a standard 20 high, only bowed in the front obviously, and about 6 gallons taller

I'm going to have a friend build a hood for it, and I was curious... do dart frogs climb glass? should I have the entire top screened? For lighting I was going to do a double 24" fluorescent fixture with 1 reptisun 5.0 and and 1 grow light of some sort for the plants (open to suggestions).

For heating I'm thinking like a 50 - 100 watt aquarium heater under the false bottom.

Background will be Great Stuff™ expanding foam, covered in cocofiber mixed with flevopol, with ghost wood molded in... although... I have a small broken-top stump I was using in my old fishtank... it looks nice, is there any way to tell how suitable it would be in a tropical vivarium? IE: will it mold, etc. It seemed to do fine in the aquarium, but I'm hesitant to build it into my background if theres no sure way to tell...

AND... does $250 sound like too much to pay for a sexed pair of azureus?

bump ops:

[geckguy]

250 is a good price, if you want a pair get them from patrick at http://www.saurian.net he has great frogs, and excellent service. I got a pair of surinam cobalts from him and I couldnt be any happier with them, I expect them to breed any time now. I am also on waiting lists for about 15 frogs of diferent morphs and species. He has multile bloodlines so you can get a unrelated pair. With dart frogs you can go up to f10 without problems, but I dont feel comfortable with going past f3-f4.

[Moe]

I say, go for the big tank man. What i would do is plan and construct the 230, but keep the frogs in a 10g quarantine to get used to feeding and keeping etc. Your supposed to quarantine all animals anyway; why not have some fun with projects while your at it. It isnt very hard.

just my opinion.
M.N