Now What?

[ibytencode]

Hello, my name is Brandon and I am new here to Dendroboard. First off, I'm a Do It Yourself (DIY) guy because its both fun and provides much satisfaction when you are done. Currently, I'm working on a DIY thread over on VivariumForum.com called DIY - From "I Have a Tank!" to Done where I provide a step-by-step instruction on how I build my stand to building my vivarium and placing frogs. The thread over at Viv Forums is only partially complete and does not show what I am working with. So here is my current tank:

FinishedSetup.jpg

I have a few questions about creating a larger Vivarium enclosure for Darts and looking for general experience tips that I can't search for because I don't know them yet. =)

In the image above you can see the custom made stand, bottom tank trim, and the hood. This is a 55 gallon long tank (dimensions are: 48.25"L x 12.75"W x 21"H) that used to be my salt water reef tank. As you can see, this tank does not provide much depth from back glass to front glass. In trying to get a visual of what I was working with, I made a 3d model in Google Sketchup and I have approximately 8" of depth from the artificial background to the front glass. This area will be where my water fall(s) will be and where I want plants on the background. The 3" behind the background will provide ample enough room to remove the water pump in the even it fails with minimal impact to the vivarium construction. Now that you have an idea of what I'm thinking about, here are some questions.

Vertical Space:
I've been searching for a Vivarium build where the creator utilises as much of the vertical space as you can for non arboreal frogs such as darts (I know there are some that are, but I'm not planning on those). Anyone have any links or ideas where the author of the vivarium took vertical space into account for non-arboreal frogs?

Water fixtures:
I want at least one water fall/drip area or possibly two with a tank long river into the pond. (doesn't matter which direction, right to left or left to right). I've seen people use expand foam and plastic bottles cut in half to build one. I've also seen styrofoam + wall spackling + acrylic paint + silicon to make another. Anyone have experience with custom river creation that can provide suggestions for why you would do it one way or the other?

Frogs in Numbers:
I've read some articles about how many dart frogs should inhabit X gallons of vivarium. My question, how come no one takes into account the actual usable space instead of empty aquarium size? For instance, I have a 55 gallon aquarium and only 8"x30"x2" and 12"x18"x2" of usable space (not counting mid air where it is unlikely to find a frog sitting enjoying himself ) That is approximately 4 gallons of usable space from the frogs perspective. Before any criticism about over thinking the problem, I'd like to make an excuse: I'm an engineer, we always over think everything. So, after that lead in, how many frogs should I prepare for? I was thinking that a maximum of 6 of the same species? Anyone have experience with a tank this size and the number of frogs that worked well?

Apology
Sorry for all the questions in this long post, just have lots of ideas rolling around and I would like to start putting together the skeleton of the vivarium sometime in the next few weeks.


Brandon (iBytenCode)
In software, we rarely have meaningful requirements. Even if we do, the only measure of success that matters is whether our solution solves the customer's shifting idea of what their problem is.
Jeff Atwood

[heckler]

In terms of using vertical space you could always make the ground sloped so that the rear of the tank is higher than the front of the tank. Also even though some species are considered ground frogs, the ones I have do their fair share of climbing on things like driftwood and plants. They will use a lot of stuff if you give it to them.

[Ed]

Originally Posted by ibytencode

This area will be where my water fall(s) will be and where I want plants on the background. The 3" behind the background will provide ample enough room to remove the water pump in the even it fails with minimal impact to the vivarium construction. Now that you have an idea of what I'm thinking about, here are some questions.

Even in larger enclosures water features can be problematic since you have to be able to prevent oversaturation of the substrates which can be a significant negative for the frogs and the plants. It has been at least anecdotally linked to significant health issues with the frogs including the potential for lesions on the feet and legs (and possibly mycobacterial infections) see Terribilis foot rot? . The problems with the water features comes from splashing and/or wicking of water up and out of the water feature. The dendrobatids found in the hobby do not need a water feature (some of the Hyloxalus are streamside dwellers). Most dendrobatids will be fine with a small depression in one corner mimicking a pool or puddle (since some will use it for tadpole deposition).

Originally Posted by ibytencode

Vertical Space:
I've been searching for a Vivarium build where the creator utilises as much of the vertical space as you can for non arboreal frogs such as darts (I know there are some that are, but I'm not planning on those). Anyone have any links or ideas where the author of the vivarium took vertical space into account for non-arboreal frogs?

I think if you search background, you will see a lot of ideas on it.

Originally Posted by ibytencode

Water fixtures:
I want at least one water fall/drip area or possibly two with a tank long river into the pond. (doesn't matter which direction, right to left or left to right). I've seen people use expand foam and plastic bottles cut in half to build one. I've also seen styrofoam + wall spackling + acrylic paint + silicon to make another. Anyone have experience with custom river creation that can provide suggestions for why you would do it one way or the other?

See my comments above.

Originally Posted by ibytencode

Frogs in Numbers:
I've read some articles about how many dart frogs should inhabit X gallons of vivarium. My question, how come no one takes into account the actual usable space instead of empty aquarium size? For instance, I have a 55 gallon aquarium and only 8"x30"x2" and 12"x18"x2" of usable space (not counting mid air where it is unlikely to find a frog sitting enjoying himself ) That is approximately 4 gallons of usable space from the frogs perspective. Before any criticism about over thinking the problem, I'd like to make an excuse: I'm an engineer, we always over think everything. So, after that lead in, how many frogs should I prepare for? I was thinking that a maximum of 6 of the same species? Anyone have experience with a tank this size and the number of frogs that worked well?

Attempting to determine the number of frogs through the use of a volume estimate isn't the best way since the frogs are going to compete for reproductive resources (calling sites, egg deposition sites, possibly access to male (tinctorius females defend access to males) or females). Volume doesn't provide a good rule of thumb for this since it cannot take into account resource distribution. (see this thread where I broke it down years ago mixing/multispecies exhibits.).
The best way to deal with this issue is to choose the dendrobatid you want for this tank and then design the tank for the frog instead of designing the tank based on a rule of thumb that doesn't actually take into account what is going to determine the actual spatial needs of the frogs. This can be quite variable depending on how the resources are distributed.

Ed

[ibytencode]

Ed,

From the link you've sent me and the discussion on this thread, I take it you have many years experience with these animals. I'd like to throw some more, deeper questions at you and hopefully you can take the time to answer them. I'd really appreciate any and all feed back.

MyCageDesign.jpg

The image above was my original design. So, what you are looking at here is a false bottom excect at the right most side. The right side was designed to be filled somewhat with rocks and water (I couldn't show dirt or other substrates so I used height markers *the vertical rectangles*). Starting from the left most side and going right I will explain each feature.

Left False Bottom: Being a little higher than the rest so I didn't have to buy as much substrate. I figured 10" of substrate would be wastefull. The horizontal rectangle hanging partially over the raised false bottom and the center was designed to be egg crate with some type of plant that was a vine (or two depending on length and size of plants). Behind this I was going to put my first mister nozzle.

Center False Bottom: This is the normal 2" to 3" off the bottom false bottom. The Stair looking boxes are egg create covered in foam creating a stair step type environment with different plants. (only two stairs with plants). The high center piece with overhang was going to have more plants that were vines and the 2nd mister nozzle facing down and right. I'm not 100% sure on this yet, but I was trying to fill the high void space of my tank. Again these are made from egg crate and expanda foam (or whatever covered in coconut husk.)

Far Right (no false bottom): This was going to be my water area with small pebbles. I was going to have water trickling down this wall over the water and over land I was going to have more plants.

Now, for my questioning:
First off, what do you think ed? Being an engineer, I'm always planning everything before attempting to make anything.

2. When you discussed the water feature possibly causing both health problems and possible vivarium problems, this is obviously bad. Wouldn't you need to weigh the potential for standing water causing bacteria faster than moving? I'm no biologist, but it seems to be stagnant water is more dangerous. I see the potential dangers with running water through the enclosure and over saturation due to splashing.

3. Water, over saturation of soil, etc. What about moss? I've read other places that some mosses are most effective in very moist environments, sometimes saturated land areas. From your previous discussion, this is bad, but does the moss in those over saturated areas help deter those problems you've discussed?

4. When I read about creating a vivarium, most people rarely discuss the top. Since my 55 gallon is a top accessible aquarium, I've gone to great lengths to try and find the answer to this question. I live the Atlanta, Georgia and the humidity fluctuates widely throughout the year. The house I live in stays anywhere between 65-76 all throughout the year. I have cut hinged plexiglass to fit the tank (the hinge provides approximately 1/2" of space between the glass pieces) and I've also cut 2 - 1" x 7" rectangles off the back side for tubes, wires, or anything else I need to put in there with it closed. Should I use these or should I provide more openings that are screened as well?

Ed, please don't take anything I write to sound confrontational, or that I don't believe what you have to say. I probe for greater understanding of what is happening so, like all engineers, I can find a solution to the problem or just plainly understand why it is bad in a more detailed manner. Then I'll try to find a way around the problem to create something better.

Also, thanks again for the two replies to my post, I really do appreciate them.

[Ed]

If you can take into account a variety of potential issues then the design is fine. There are many paths to the same end (a fact I recognized a long long time ago). I've dealt with many enclosure designs both in a professional and private capacity.

Originally Posted by ibytencode

2. When you discussed the water feature possibly causing both health problems and possible vivarium problems, this is obviously bad. Wouldn't you need to weigh the potential for standing water causing bacteria faster than moving? I'm no biologist, but it seems to be stagnant water is more dangerous. I see the potential dangers with running water through the enclosure and over saturation due to splashing.

People often equate still with stagnent when discussing water and this is often not the case. Stagnation can be the the result of many causes including excessive nutrient input fueling excessive bacterial growth which in turn depletes the oxygen content resulting in stagnent water. One of the fastest ways to get stagnent water in an enclosure is to have excessively wet substrate(s) since this prevents oxygen pentration and supports anaerobic (both facultative and obligate) growth by the microbes. It also often results in compacted substrates.
One of the best ways to avoid this issue is to design in an airgap between the top of the water in the false bottom and the bottom of the support for the false bottom. This also helps to some extent prevent over saturation of the substrate. Since you have misting heads in the enclosure your also going to have some form of drainage system to prevent the water from contacting the bottom of the false bottom. I use an automatic drain set at the desired level below the false bottom. This prevents the water in the bottom of the tank from ever contacting the bottom of the substrate while flushing excess nutrients from the system. Since this tend to result in a shallow water layer in the bottom of the tank that is always in contact with air, it also prevents it from stagnating (it also is a nutrient drain which reduces bacterial load...). This also reduces or prevents "salt creep" from forming on the highest points in the tank where evaporation occurs. (this can be seen in potted plants where high points in the substrate turn white over time).

Originally Posted by ibytencode

3. Water, over saturation of soil, etc. What about moss? I've read other places that some mosses are most effective in very moist environments, sometimes saturated land areas. From your previous discussion, this is bad, but does the moss in those over saturated areas help deter those problems you've discussed?

Saturated live moss is still saturated.... It doesn't change the conditions, few dendrobatids live where they have to consistently sit on saturated materials like the conditions found in the terraria.

Originally Posted by ibytencode

4. When I read about creating a vivarium, most people rarely discuss the top. Since my 55 gallon is a top accessible aquarium, I've gone to great lengths to try and find the answer to this question. I live the Atlanta, Georgia and the humidity fluctuates widely throughout the year. The house I live in stays anywhere between 65-76 all throughout the year. I have cut hinged plexiglass to fit the tank (the hinge provides approximately 1/2" of space between the glass pieces) and I've also cut 2 - 1" x 7" rectangles off the back side for tubes, wires, or anything else I need to put in there with it closed. Should I use these or should I provide more openings that are screened as well?

People often force thier animals to live in conditions where humidity is maximized at the expense of air flow this is done to maximize activity as well as reproduction. This is not normal and also removes options from the frogs such as the ability to regulate thier body temperature through evaporative cooling. This is in no small part one of the reasons we see comments about "deaths due to temperatures above 80 F, despite the fact that the temperatures in thier original enviroment being much higher. I've temperature gunned skin surface temperatures of over 85 F in some dendrobatids in ventilated tanks while the frogs were engaged in active foraging..... Yet I am comfortable in saying that in a sealed tank those frogs would probably have died from thermal issues... Poor air circulation is also a reason why a number of plant genera do not do well in frog tanks (example many orchids) since stagnent air promotes rotting of the plants.

In some of my 20 gallon verticle tanks housing pumilio, I have 4 inch vents (across the top of the tank so it is about 4 inch by 13 inches (if I remember correctly) and they only get misted for a total of 45 seconds (split between two mistings), yet routinely produce froglets... The humidity outside the tank is typically between 50 and 60% and right before misting the humidity routinely drops below 70%.

Originally Posted by ibytencode

Ed, please don't take anything I write to sound confrontational, or that I don't believe what you have to say. I probe for greater understanding of what is happening so, like all engineers, I can find a solution to the problem or just plainly understand why it is bad in a more detailed manner. Then I'll try to find a way around the problem to create something better.

Also, thanks again for the two replies to my post, I really do appreciate them.

I didn't take it as confrontational but I may be terse in and of myself since that is my habit (and I've repeatedly discussed some variations of this repeatedly over the years) so don't be offended if I am terse.

Hope this helps,

Ed

[ibytencode]

Ed,

First off, thank you for all your help. It has been very eye opening and helpful.

I have a problem currently, I've been working on the egg crate false bottom and background skeleton and I've ran into a problem. My tank is a split top 55 gallon. That is, my tank has a 3" piece that runs from the back to the front right in the middle of the tank for support. That hinders my ability to put large custom made backgrounds into the tank using the egg crate. I hadn't really expected this drawback and not I'm not really sure what I'm going to do about it. I know that I don't want to make a permanent background made of expand-a-foam right on the tank glass. 1- it is almost like a tatoo, you like it at the time you do it, but that doesn't mean that it will be what you expected in 7 months to a year when you need to maintain the tank. 2- I can make sectional egg create but I don't think that is too bright due to possible loss of frogs. So that is out of the question. I ran across this guys vivarium, which is the same size as mine, who doesn't seem to have a background and it looks really sweet. Anyone have an experience with a non background vivarium that can comment?

Here is the viv:
IMG_1572.jpg

Also, how do you guys create drainage systems in your vivarium? I'm guessing some of you have pre-drilled holes for drainage or you drill your own? I'm not so sure about trying that with my aquarium just yet. I've cracked other glass aquariums and I would rather not do that on this one. So any great ideas on drainage with false bottoms and no cutting glass?

[goof901]

if you are using a plexiglass top, get a glass one because the plexiglass will warp very fast. for a background you could do cork panels or tree fern panels. also, i'm confused, is that pic the pic of your viv, or just one you want your viv to look like?

[ibytencode]

That vivarium is someone else's vivarium that had no background. I think it looks good with all the wood and stuff in it. I've been searching for 55 gallon long vivariums so I can see what others have done. My vivarium looks like:

72_StandComplete.jpg
86_FalseBottomDoneFront.jpg
87_FalseBottomDoneSide.jpg

I'm working on the egg crate and false bottom at the moment. With Ed's advice I was able to re-adjust my setup. Real problem is that the background isn't as nice as most of what I see online. I refuse to use expand-a-foam on my glass.

Brandon (iBytenCode)
In software, we rarely have meaningful requirements. Even if we do, the only measure of success that matters is whether our solution solves the customer's shifting idea of what their problem is.
Jeff Atwood

[goof901]

since you refuse to use foam on your background, why not just get a piece (or 2, so it can fit) of egg-crate and foam on that and make a removable background
Method to have a removable rock/embankment/cliff background?
there's a thread discussing methods for a removable background

[ibytencode]

I was attempting to make some removable backgrounds but I have a 3" bar in the center of my aquarium to support the front and back middle glass. So I'd have to make two backgrounds. The real question is, do you actually need a background for darts? Or is it just for aesthetic purposes only? If you look at one of my previous pictures, I have the rectangle pump shoot and a small rectangle mid tank for some background stuff. I can great stuff those without trouble. It is the big back grounds that won't fit through my top.

So, what is the true reason for having a background besides aesthetically pleasing to the viewers? I know it holds plants, but with and without the backgrounds you can have the same plants correct? Just depends on how you place them in the vivarium.