mixing/multispecies exhibits.

[Ed]

I believe I will take Mr. Yeager up on his invite to continue this discussion.

When referring to mixed enclosuresi the use of the word mixed is an inapt description as this indicates that the animals are together in a homogenized fashion. Because this is not what typically happens multispecies is a better description of the properly set-up enclosure.
Multispecies enclosures are becoming more and more common with the larger and better Zoos (including some of those at the forefront of dendrobatid breeding such as NAIB) and Aquaria. Many of the multispecies enclosures at these institutions have been present for years (some for more than a decade) with little to no problems and in some occasions house multiplegenerations of the animals on exhibit.

There are a lot of issues that are thrown when ever multispecies enclosures are brought up on various forums (not just this one) these include (and I am sure I missed a few),

1) the spatial requirements of the animals are violated
2) pathogens
3) stress

Spatial needs of the animals, this is a issue where some hard and fast numbers have become set in stone in the hobby. Usually, people speak about 5 gallons per frog. To make this simple, I am using the assumption that the 5.5 gallon tank is the standard for the 5 gallons that is the commonly used reference.
Within the 5.5 gallons of space, the space used by the frog (I am going to use a tinct as a standard for the larger dart frogs) is typically very different than the space "alloted". In a typically planted set-up the frog will only use the bottom of the tank most of the time so the actual used total space can be calculated by the surface area of the bottom of the tank (8 inches by 12 inches) and say 3 inches of head room for the frogs to hop. A 5.5 gallon tank contains 960 cubic inches so the frogs only really use 30% (288/960 = 0.3) of the available space or about 1.65 gallons.
What this means is that people have to pay attention to how the tank is portioned out for the frogs. With the set-up described above (5.5 gallon tank) there may be between 4 to 5 inches (substracting for bottom of the tank) of height in the tank that is not used by the dart frog. This would indicate that another species could inhabit that niche if the owner of the enclosure was so inclined. In a manner similar to aquariums, people can look at the enclosure as having an upper portions, a middle portion and a lower portion. In most of the smaller enclosures, this will only be two levels. The other space designates a niche that can potentially be used for a different species. This is where multispecies enclosure planning begins. The person needs to be aware of how much space is really being utilized in the enclosure by the animals. This will give you the first step on the path to the next choice if you wish to keep multispecies enclosures.

After comments (if any), next topic pathogens (last will be criteria to help make the correct choice).

Ed

Woah! That makes allot of sence. This is why i think chameleons could be kept with tincs, in a 50gallon, or over. My tincs only use 1.4 foot by 2.8 foot of ground. The chams will use about 30 gallons worth of air.

[Ed]

I would wait until the next series before you consider mixing from different regions.

Ed

[Derek Benson]

Your calculations make no sense what so ever, as many of us don't jsut have a ground level and backgrounds. We have hiding areas, branches protruding formt he background, the glass itself, etc. so the frog truly does use the full 5 gallons that given to it.

I've seen death traps ( I mean community tanks) are becoming more and more common, anyone care to join me in making one with a variety of frogs, turtles, lizards, etc.? Seems to be ok, been going on for a while now...

[Derek Benson]

P.S. I love how this was posted in the beginner section, as these are the people (beginners) who truley need to be thinking about mixing species.

[EverettC]

I think if you wanted to make a 15 foot high tank with trees in it and put darts and some sort of south american tree snakes in it than that would work but not much short of it. The only option I see for mixed species tanks is maybe some mantellas and leaf chameleons in a decently large enclosure. But I must agree with derek that this is not a beginner section topic.

[melissa68]

Ed,

I don't think this is a good area of the board to have this discussion is in the beginner's section. This is clearly an advanced topic and I think you are giving people the wrong idea that mixing species is ok.

Yes, multispecies enclosures are becoming all the rage. I have seen some very beautiful ones (NAIB comes to mind) and some others which looked as is all the frogs were going to die any day now: no more than dirt, some vines, a fogger and a ton of ground dwelling frogs. I do not want to get into the reasons zoos and institutions are modifying set ups, the reasons are too politically and emotionally charged, but often not all choices implemented are in the best interest of the animal - instead are designed to create a good show and give a facility a "Poison Dart Frog Exhibit".

The planning, $, care and space necessary for such works of art, are not within the realm of the beginning hobbyist. This is an extremely advanced topic.

Our stand on mixing is "Don't do it". The reason we want our beginning customers to be successful!!!

I think a lot of people will read your post; FrogKid already did, and will see that an "Expert" has said it is ok to mix. Regardless of all the disclaimers, people will do what they want to do...

I do hope people don't get the wrong idea from your post. I do think set ups such as these can be done, but I disagree with the area of the board it was posted.

Merry X-mas,

Melis

Originally Posted by Ed

When referring to mixed enclosuresi the use of the word mixed is an inapt description as this indicates that the animals are together in a homogenized fashion. Because this is not what typically happens multispecies is a better description of the properly set-up enclosure.

Multispecies enclosures are becoming more and more common with the larger and better Zoos (including some of those at the forefront of dendrobatid breeding such as NAIB) and Aquaria. Many of the multispecies enclosures at these institutions have been present for years (some for more than a decade) with little to no problems and in some occasions house multiplegenerations of the animals on exhibit.

[Scott]

I wonder if you folks know who Ed is?

Ed - post it where you need to. I see exactly what you're saying.

s

Ed is Ed Kowalski the lead keeper at the Philly zoo. He is also one of the best biologists/herpetologists I know. His experience in breadth and time beats most of ours here, myself included.
j

Also Ed, if you want, I can move the discussion, but I think it's relevant for everyone to see. Many beginners see tanks at pet stores, many of which are mixed (especially their 'displays'), so I consider this both an advanced topic as well as a beginner. The beginners are far more likely to have errors with mixing, so I think it's best they are assured of reading this as well.
j