NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made

[Rich Frye]

Although quarantine does not only belong in the beginner's section I think this should be posted here.
The first four "my first frog" threads I just read show frogs dropped right into a set-up non-quarantine viv. I am curious as to how many froggers quarantine , how they do a proper quarantine, and if there are still (must be) those out there who either have never heard of proper quarantine or just don't see the up-side to it.
This is quite probably the biggest beginner mistake (although not one limited to newbies) and also quite possibly the biggest cause of pre-mature Dart deaths.
Comments?

Rich

[skylsdale]

I've never quarantined any of my frogs in the sense that they are placed into a bare enclosure that is easily cleanable, etc. I personally think it's much less stressful to place the frogs straight into the enclosure I have prepared for them.

I have my doubts with the hyper-quarantine methods of a sterile and stark tub/enclosure with wet or damp paper towels as 'substrate' as I think it heightens the risks of bacterial infection, etc. The cons outweight the pros IMO.

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by skylsdale

I've never quarantined any of my frogs in the sense that they are placed into a bare enclosure that is easily cleanable, etc. I personally think it's much less stressful to place the frogs straight into the enclosure I have prepared for them.

I have my doubts with the hyper-quarantine methods of a sterile and stark tub/enclosure with wet or damp paper towels as 'substrate' as I think it heightens the risks of bacterial infection, etc. The cons outweight the pros IMO.

Let me start with your "hyper-quarantine" concerns and go from there.
My quarantine containers consist of 1.5 gallon (my froglets go into the same tubs which I have used exclusively for over five years now) round tubs from Josh. I never lose any quarantined frogs (and I quarantine all my new frogs no matter who I get them from) to bacterial infections caused by enclosure issues. My tubs all have a very nice thick layer of leaf litter, many plants , and stress frogs no more than any other container that has ample spots to hide. Chasing a sick frog around a fully planted 90 gal is not a good time for either a sick frog or a chaser. Quarantine is one of the absolutely accepted and practised procedures by Zoos, aquariums, universities, ASN/Treewalkers (which you are a member of Ron) and museums. Using a permanent viv as a quarantine enclosure is not considered proper quarantine. The ASN stance on quarantine is posted under "good threads for beginners" here.
Now to the cons of not quarantining.
Each and every frog that comes into a collection has the possibility of being diseased. Each and every frog can pass along this disease to other frogs in same enclosures and all diseased frogs can pass along said disease to a fully planted viv. Anybody who can look at a frog for a bit and proclaim it "happy and healthy" has an instant job at the psychic hotline because I know of nobody capable by conventional , scientific ways.
So, if your concerns are death by bacterial infection worry no longer. If you are hoping for the best because you buy from"reputable dealers" just understand that each and every sick or diseased frog I have owned (and I have owned a few) have all come from "reputable dealers". If you buy frogs from me, quarantine and run fecals. There is not one breeder out there who can proclaim with certainty that all of their darts are in-fact "happy and healthy".

Rich

[rozdaboff]

While quarantine is important - I have little doubt that there are bigger mistakes made by beginners. Inappropriate temperatures and improper supplementation would get my vote for the 2 biggest mistakes made by beginners.

If a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs, places them into a completed tank and provides appropriate husbandry conditions - the chances are very good that those frogs will live quite content for a significant period of time. Is there a chance the frogs overall longevity is compromised due to the presence of a parasite? Certainly. But is there a chance they will live as long as a pair of frogs that were not quarantined - but housed in the same manner? Yup. (and I agree that there are different ways of measuring success and longevity may not mean success in every ones eyes).

The same can't be said if the frogs are placed in a tank in a room that can experience extremely high temps or be exposed directly to sunlight, or for people who get frogs and feed them without offering calcium. In those cases - you will have a dead frog in less than a years time (and most likely less than 6 months).

I am certainly not advocating that quarantine is without utility, and I fully support and fully practice quarantine. However - if a newbie is going to make a mistake - I would much rather see them not quarantine than not understand and not meet the MINIMAL essential husbandry.

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by rozdaboff

While quarantine is important - I have little doubt that there are bigger mistakes made by beginners. Inappropriate temperatures and improper supplementation would get my vote for the 2 biggest mistakes made by beginners.

While usual room temps are similar to dart acceptable temps and it can take months for supp issues to show (time in which supp posts can be read) contaminating a full viv happens almost instantly. But I agree that those are two biggies also.

Originally Posted by rozdaboff

If a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs, places them into a completed tank and provides appropriate husbandry conditions - the chances are very good that those frogs will live quite content for a significant period of time. Is there a chance the frogs overall longevity is compromised due to the presence of a parasite? Certainly. But is there a chance they will live as long as a pair of frogs that were not quarantined - but housed in the same manner? Yup. (and I agree that there are different ways of measuring success and longevity may not mean success in every ones eyes).

First off , if a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs and places them into a completed tank they are not providing proper husbandry conditions.
Please don't say that there is a chance that a diseased frog will live as long as a disease free frog. This has been thrown out there before and I know of very few froggers who even have the possibility of having ran a scientific test to prove that diseased frogs live as long as healthy frogs. But I can only guess they do not.

Originally Posted by rozdaboff

I am certainly not advocating that quarantine is without utility, and I fully support and fully practice quarantine. However - if a newbie is going to make a mistake - I would much rather see them not quarantine than not understand and not meet the MINIMAL essential husbandry.

I am glad you support quarantine. But proper quarantine is the essence of proper husbandry, not to be placed in some sub-section of husbandry issues.
Feel free to change the title if this is the only issue.........


Rich

[beachbabe18509]

Still being new to the hobby I think quarantine is easily overlooked early on, but not one of the biggest mistakes.. My first two frogs went straight into a "permanent" enclosure, and have been their seemingly healthily and happily for over 6 months, looking back it was probably not the best choice but one I made with the little information I had gathered prior to their arrival. I didn't think it was neccesary because the had been housed together prior to my aquisition of them and because I had no other frogs i fear contamination too. However I recently aquired a third frog and plan on moving all three to a larger tank, the 2 originals are in their tank and the new comer is in a sterilite tub with plants, leaf litter and a coco hut, this is her "quarantine" Im having fecals done on all of them before they move in, and the new frog will have been isolated for over a month so I can attest to her appearance of health to back up the results of the fecal(assuming all goes well).

I think quarantine becomes an issue when adding to an existing collection, something most newcomers to the hobby don't have, and hopefully by the time they do they will understand the neccesity and not make the mistake.

[Rich Frye]

Amanda,
The fact that two ,or any other number frogs, are housed together before you bought them just means that they both are most likely either "clean" or not. If they are/were not "clean" then the time in quarantine before you dirty the viv is the time to test and clean up the frogs.

Rich

[beachbabe18509]

Rich,

I realize that now and luckily, and didn't blindly throw everyone into a new tank together I guess that was my point. I started them off in a bare minimuim ten gallon thinking this would be an adequate lifetime home, I kept reading and researching and realized it by no means was. I also realized I probably should have quarantined and tested them, but I didn't and at that point I did realize I should have the tank they were in would have been like you said dirty. I got a bigger tank, and will test them before moving to the new tank, if they turn up dirty there is another sterilite waiting so I can get them into a clean environment for treatment before they move to their new home.

I guess I was just trying to clarify on the thought process of a newb and why they think quarantine wouldn't be neccesary. I know for any and all future purchases I plan on quarantining and getting fecals done before allowing them into a permanent set-up. I think a "First Frog Horror Story" topic should be added to begginer disscussion to help people realize some of the results of not following the guidelines established by expeirenced froggers. I know reading posts of those who attempted to save a frog after letting something go without catching it early enough really helped me understand the neccesity of quarantine.

[rozdaboff]

Originally Posted by Rich Frye

Please don't say that there is a chance that a diseased frog will live as long as a disease free frog. This has been thrown out there before and I know of very few froggers who even have the possibility of having ran a scientific test to prove that diseased frogs live as long as healthy frogs. But I can only guess they do not.

"Diseased" and "disease-free" is a different argument. Diseased would indicate an "interruption, cessation, or disorder of body functions, systems, or organs" (Stedman's Medical Dictionary). I stated:
"If a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs, places them into a completed tank and provides appropriate husbandry conditions - the chances are very good that those frogs will live quite content for a significant period of time. Is there a chance the frogs overall longevity is compromised due to the presence of a parasite? Certainly. But is there a chance they will live as long as a pair of frogs that were not quarantined - but housed in the same manner? Yup."

But - let's say that the unquarantined frogs have the possibility to have some sort of parasite. And the unquarantined frogs are "sterile". Will the unquarantined frogs have the possibility to live as long as the sterile frogs. Yes - as we have no evidence to suggest otherwise. Is there a possibility that the unquarantined frogs (all other variables being the same) will die earlier? Yes. And is there a possibility that the unquarantined frogs will live longer than the sterile frogs? Yes. You are very right, the scientific tests haven't been done; and because of that - all options are possible and legitimate.

If you feel that the unquarantined frogs will die sooner, that is your opinion, which you are absolutely entitled to. But if the foundation for your argument is the lack of evidence, you must accept the fact that there is the same possibility for the other outcomes. However - if you were to say that you were going to compare frogs infected with lungworm (Rhabdias sp.) with frogs that were not infected - then that would be a different story. There is plenty of evidence that shows the pathologic effect of lungworm infection.

Quarantine alone is of little use if you do not know what to look for in a sick frog, and if you don't perform testing to determine the parasites present in the animal. And you are never going to be able to test for everything. So there is always a risk.

But proper quarantine is the essence of proper husbandry, not to be placed in some sub-section of husbandry issues.
Feel free to change the title if this is the only issue.........

If this is the way that you feel, and you feel that the hobby is lacking - a much more productive way to approach the issue would be to draft a sheet that explains how you feel quarantine should be done, what to look for, and how to look for it. Making a blanket statement that you feel that "NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made" is all well and good, but I don't see how that helps.

[skylsdale]

Let me start with your "hyper-quarantine" concerns and go from there.
My quarantine containers consist of....

You never actually addressed my concerns...you instead turned to talk about your quarantine methods, which I actually have no concerns about.

Would you mind addressing the actual quarantine method I have concerns about?

Quarantine is one of the absolutely accepted and practised procedures by Zoos, aquariums, universities, ASN/Treewalkers (which you are a member of Ron)....

And which also functions under the assumption that everyone who joins has plenty of room for improvement and learning.

But proper quarantine is the essence of proper husbandry, not to be placed in some sub-section of husbandry issues.
Feel free to change the title if this is the only issue.........

If this is the way that you feel, and you feel that the hobby is lacking - a much more productive way to approach the issue would be to draft a sheet that explains how you feel quarantine should be done, what to look for, and how to look for it. Making a blanket statement that you feel that "NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made" is all well and good, but I don't see how that helps.

Agreed.