Mixing/Matching color morphs of the same species of Pums

[krafty]

From what I have read it is not uncommon for two Bastis of the same color morph to produce a different colored froglet. I assume its because a previous generation bred with a different colored frog of the same species and thus there is a recessive gene somewhere.

My question(s) is why does it seem that all of the pairs of Pums (Bastis, Rio's, Christos) offered for sale are the same color morph? What is wrong with someone breeding two different colored frogs as long as they are the same species? Please understand I am not asking why we don't pair up a Man Creek and Basti. But I am asking why not an larger spotted Christo with a smaller spotted Christo. Or an Orange Rio with a Green Rio. Wouldn't this lead to more genetic diversity and potentially stronger future offspring?

Rick

[MonarchzMan]

Bastimentos, Isla Colon, and the rest of the morphs of pumilio represent separate, distinct populations. Breeders want to preserve that genetic diversity since a lot of those frog morphs are being threatened in the wild by habitat loss.

[fleenor1]

Krafty,
I asked this same question at Northwest Frog Fest this past year to a breeder there. I had lost a red male Basti that was part of a pair of reds. The only male Basti that I found was a yellow. I was told that this was ok by the person selling it and I know this person is very reputable when it comes to darts. He also told me that like colored pairs will throw different color offspring from time to time. I ended up getting the yellow male to pair up with the red female. They have not mated as of yet though but, I think this is the females problem.

This is what I have been told at least about Bastis and I am not sure about any other Pums like Rio's or Christo's.

Later,
Brad

[krafty]

Thank you for the responses.
Anyone have any responses on whether its OK to breed two different color morphs of Cristo's or Rio Brancos?
Rick

[O2 Plastics]

I've always wondered about "mixing" as well. Understanding that color A is generally found in location while color B isn't. Saying that A never crosses the street into B's territory doesn't seem overly realistic. Looking at animals like tincs, that are so similar and only vary in coloration, its not hard to make a connection that they are nothing more than different color morphs of the same animal. So animal A breeds with B, and we have C which then flourishes. Or breed azure with citronella and end up with cobalt.

Assuming this is true, line breeding to keep specific characteristics should prove to be harmful of time. Folks with albino boas line bred for generations to make more albinos. In a fairly short time period genetic problems started popping up all over including 1 eyed/no eyed snakes, clutches of infertile animals etc. Same thing with pure-bred dogs. Lots of otherwise good breeds have health problems from keeping the blood pure. "Hybrid" dogs are become more and more popular for this reason. Since its impossible to determine a dogs breed even through DNA, it seems reasonable that all current "breeds" are nothing more than selective breeding from the original "dog".

From that standpoint, I wouldn't see any reason not to experiment with the idea and see if problems like SLS can't be limited just by broadening the bloodlines. You would need a larger collection to do it ,but if you have a couple pairs of different tinc morphs that consistently have problems, whether it be SLS or even just regular bad clutches it would be doable.

[MonarchzMan]

I don't believe that darts are line bred like what you see in snakes or in dogs. These colors occur naturally, so people aren't necessarily trying to breed for a particular trait.

Look at some range maps and see where these different morphs occur, of all the polymorphic species, really. You'll see that they're all pretty well divided. Tincs span the Amazon basin, and there are plenty of isolating conditions out there, whether it be rivers or human settlement. Pumilio are on islands and mainland areas, and unless they evolve a way to be the first amphibians to survive in saltwater, they're not going to meet up with one another.

Read some of the research on these species. You'll see that these frogs don't just vary in color, but they also vary in toxicity, size, and behavior. There is a great amount of genetic variety in these frogs and if you were to mix them, well, you'd just be creating a mutt and as a result lose that uniqueness.

[O2 Plastics]

Don't take my post wrongly, I'm not saying that any potential morphs happened last week, just raising the supposition that it did happen. I'm definitely not saying that a 1st gen cross of azure and cit would be a cobalt. Figuring rivers change course, and any human separation would be relatively recent. Location and diet over time would affect toxicity etc. Again using dogs as an example, we have big dogs, little dogs, black dogs, white dogs, not because that's how nature intended, but how they were bred over time.

Again, assuming that is what happened, any breeding of 1 morph to the same would be line breeding for specific trait. IE azure to azure is going to result in a blue and black frog and nothing else. With limited breeding potential, assuming most people with frogs got their pair from 1 source, genetic abnormalities are an inevitable end result.

I'm just enjoying my frogs, and hopefully some day I'll see eggs. But the part of me that made me want to be a scientist when I grew up would be very interested in the experiment.

[MonarchzMan]

Let me get this straight... You're thinking that such a variety of color happened recently, as in since humans occupied central and south america?

The change in colors did happen recently, in geologic time, but that's still many thousands of years ago. What we're seeing now can pretty easily be likened to Darwin's Finches, only they haven't quite speciated yet. It's all natural. Human involvement did not result in these morphs. Human involvement may accentuate them (such as further isolation), but these morphs were here before we started exploring the jungle. Some may be further along than others (for instance, I'd say tinctorius' divergence is more recent than pumilio's divergence), but I don't think that we should potentially backtrack what is happening naturally by adding our own involvement more than necessary.

[O2 Plastics]

Originally Posted by MonarchzMan

Let me get this straight... You're thinking that such a variety of color happened recently, as in since humans occupied central and south america?

No, I mean the exact opposite. I may not have worded it clearly. Since the isolation conditions of human settlements are relatively recent I was trying to discount them as a direct element of the color variation.

Essentially what I'm saying is that in theory, at 1 point we had FROG. For this example FROG will be a tinc and represent the species and no other. For this example we'll say FROG is 100% pure green. If at one point say a new river popped up and split the FROG species in half forcing each half into a different environment and food supply then the other half, over time it would be reasonable to see a change in color. So generations later we now have a red FROGr, and a blue FROGb. Since the original group has been separated for so long FROG no longer exists, but both FROGr and FROGb retain some features of FROG. If similar events happen to each of the sub groups you end up with FROGy, FROGo etc. Each looking different than the last, but retaining some features.

So is FROGo a different animal than FROGr? Or is it the same animal and just a different color? If I breed r and o and get back to a 50/50 split of r and b, have I done a bad thing or just ended up 1 step closer to actual FROG?

And by selectively breeding only r to r and b to b, am I preserving anything, or just line breeding due to the limited initial population and walking a trail down to the inevitable?

Remember, I'm just theorizing here.

[MonarchzMan]

Well, what I'm trying to say is that there's more difference to these frogs than just color. Toxicity has been shown to be very variable among the pumilio morphs (I'd guess it's the same with other species). Size is also quite different. Look at a Bastimentos pumilio and a Escudo de Veraguas or a Isla Popa. There's great differences in size. Bastimentos can be 20% larger than Isla Popa! Behavior is quite different too. Anyone with Blue and Black auratus can tell you that.

Yes, you could probably breed an Azureus and a Citronella and get something that resembles a cobalt in color, but you lose the other things that make that a distinct morph.